daywalkerJoined: 09 Nov 2007Posts: 4927Location: Hatertown
I'm sorry I can't hear you over SHUT UP
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Alex
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:54 pm
Joined: 18 May 2006Posts: 2639Location: Roosevelt
i put my new s&s bike into a suitcase, then added 10lbs of snorkeling equipment. 47lbs, right by the limit.
tehschkott
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:16 pm
daywalkerJoined: 09 Nov 2007Posts: 4927Location: Hatertown
Was very pleased with myself for finally going ghetto tubeless last night - or any tubeless for that matter - on the front wheel of my Bad Monkey. Was sitting on my couch, watching Lost and just goofing off when WHAAAM!!!! the wheel explodes probably an hour after I last touched it, just sitting there.
Sealant goes EVERYWHERE. Looked like a gotdamb bukakke grenade went off in my living room.
Then eeeerrrrhhhhh thuthump... the bike falls over. It was almost comical.
Ugh. Remember to drop that PSI after you do your initial seal. Lesson learned. No damage done fortunately.
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tehschkott
Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:17 pm
daywalkerJoined: 09 Nov 2007Posts: 4927Location: Hatertown
Got the tubeless thing down I think - like it so much I went tubeless on the XO-2 two nights ago.
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Razi
Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:20 pm
Joined: 16 Dec 2005Posts: 858Location: Port Antonio, Jamaica
I'm curious why you are going tubeless. Seems like the time of tubelessness was way before my time, so I'm intrigued by the choice. Ride quality? Why the fuck not? Creative anachronism--do you mail order your tubes from an old-timey catalogue and fill out the order form with a typewriter or a fountain pen?
mainly lowers rotational weight. Plus the sealant will fix most minor punctures pretty quickly.
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Alex
Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:54 pm
Joined: 18 May 2006Posts: 2639Location: Roosevelt
The normal excuse that I hear is to get lower tire pressures on mountain bikes without pinch flatting.
I can say that my tubeless rim is by far the most annoying wheel I've ever taken tires off of. Once the bead is locked into the rim channel good luck getting it out of there again. I should probably run tubeless on that wheel (I still use tubes) just to avoid every having to touch it again.
henry
Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:01 pm
somewhat piggishJoined: 05 Aug 2005Posts: 5260Location: on porch with shotgun
Razi wrote:
I'm curious why you are going tubeless. Seems like the time of tubelessness was way before my time, so I'm intrigued by the choice. Ride quality? Why the fuck not? Creative anachronism--do you mail order your tubes from an old-timey catalogue and fill out the order form with a typewriter or a fountain pen?
Do tell, Scott.
Keep in mind the bikes in question are the bicycle equivalent of dressage horses. They sit in a corner, get posted about on the internet and then (after much preparation) are paraded in front of a few enthusiasts a couple times a year.
There's no reason to do this to a bicycle you use for transportation.
* When used with the sealant it presumably has the ability to heal from rather significant - and repeated - punctures. Punctures happen, the ability to rapidly repair from them is valuable.
* It's around 200g lighter per wheel - and as Paul pointed out, that's all rotational weight which is significant. No tube, no weight.
* It greatly reduces the rolling resistance, improving ride quality quite a bit. I can roll at lower PSI's without it feeling like I'm pedalling through sand. It's crazy. Fred told me about this beforehand and I thought he was full of shit. I was wrong.
Speaking of lower PSI's - because there's no tube to pinch-flat you can run at REALLY low PSI's, which mountain bikers like.
It's not perfect protection though. For example, you can still pinch flat the actual tire, though obviously it's much tougher to. It also won't protect against a cut sidewall, but either will running tubed so you know, caveat emptor I guess.
I've been using the ghetto method below, using rims (and tires) that are not specifically designed for tubeless, but using Stans sealant anyhow. It's more work to set up (you have to cut off the flashing) but reports say it works better than the rim strip conversion kit Stans uses to do the same thing. Watch the video to see what I mean.
I can say with a little practice the ghetto works well, but I've also found I must run my tires at lower PSI's so the tire doesn't burp off the rim. Again the lower rolling resistance offsets whatever drawbacks might come of dropping the PSI - no big deal. I'm not talking a great deal lower - instead of 60psi I'm rolling at 40~45psi on pavement on the XO and the Bad Monkey. I'm rolling 15~20psi in the mountains. Fred's running like 10psi in the mountains.
There are lots of pros and con arguments for tubeless. Some love them, some hate them. It can be messy and cumbersome to setup the first couple times. The puncture recovery capabilities, general ride quality - even on pavement, seem like a great trade off if the theory holds up.
Alex is using tubes with a tubeless rim. Rims designed for tubeless use are designed to be extra tough to get the tire off and on - to prevent the burping I spoke of. The two are designed to work in tandem - rim and sealant. Sure you can use a tube in them if you burp the rim but it's not ideal, largely for the reason Alex laments. Theoretically if he used the sealant, he wouldn't need to remove the tire as often. I think this would cause anyone frustration.
I don't know if this is an organized response to your question - There's a lot of variables and information. It's still all part kool-aid, part theory, with just an eeensy bit of experience. In 3 months I might come to the conclusion that it's all bullshit. Who knows. But first impressions have been very encouraging.
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tom
Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:56 am
Joined: 14 Aug 2007Posts: 57Location: cap hill
Had this bike built up in various incarnations for about a year now
last night got a care package so I guess it's pretty much a dedicated tourer now
Still have a little ways to go but ready for a weekend without obligations ASAP!
Has anyone ever used one of these before?
joeball
Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:21 am
Joined: 24 Jul 2005Posts: 5019Location: Over the bridge and up the hill
The bike looks great Tom.
I wouldn't bother with that seatpost collar/rack job though. Your rack stays would have to rise about 6" to reach the collar judging by your picture. This could make them less effective too at preventing the rack from rotating. Even though the pclamps you are using now may not seem ideal you can see that they are located in the ideal location. The only other mod you might try is just running a bracket to the hole in the seatstay bridge.
Replaced white (and now bulging) Paselas on the old Panasonic Paramount with black Schwalbe Ultremos from Krautland.
Also replaced the Salsa short and shallow handlebars with these Soma Highway 1 bars (44cm). No more ugly hook bend. These bars are pretty fantastic. My pics aren't doing them justice.
http://www.somafab.com/archives/product/highway-1-bar
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tehschkott
Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:07 am
daywalkerJoined: 09 Nov 2007Posts: 4927Location: Hatertown
Finished this today - 19.5in On-One Scandal 29er with Chinese Carbon Rims - tubeless.
2x9 SRAM X9 shifters
34x24 SRAM Turbine Cranks
XT hydro brakes
On-One Fleegle bars
Carbon Noir Seatpost
Fizik Saddle
Chinese Carbon Rims
XTR Hubs
Reba RLT Ti fork w/ tapered steerer and remote lockout.
DT Swiss skewers
Replaceable dropouts.
and uh... I don't know. Ask me if you want more details for your bicycle fapping.
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Ductape
Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:01 am
Joined: 06 Mar 2010Posts: 127Location: Suburbia
Cool. Looks like a fun ride. How do you like the feel of those ergonomic grips? They seem to be getting popular....Also it seems bar ends are making a comeback all the sudden.
tehschkott
Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:01 am
daywalkerJoined: 09 Nov 2007Posts: 4927Location: Hatertown
looks stupid, feels good. We'll see if they get caught on anything while riding.
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Eric the Red
Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:32 am
Joined: 02 May 2010Posts: 146Location: In the saddle
Those ultremos are pretty fancy tires, how do you like them?
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jimmythefly
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:54 pm
Joined: 10 Jan 2007Posts: 1005
FFFUUUUUU! Building wheels last night. ONE spoke too long, could not finish build.
And actually, once I replace that one and bring them all up to tension, I think the entire drive side might be too long, and the NDS perhaps a bit short. Old White Industries rear hub that I measured the specs on myself (and that seemed to jive with various specs found on the interwebs). But, the flanges are really thick, and she spoke heads aren't seating well.
Hopefully the front wheel build goes better.
caustic meatloaf
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:31 pm
All Paid UpJoined: 06 Dec 2010Posts: 2193Location: A hammy melange
Haven't done anything to it, yet, but I just got the handlebars and barcons for the touring bike today, chain's been shipped, derailleur's been shipped.
Been thinking of what to name it. Right now, it's down to "Might Ride 'er", and "Long Bomb 'er"
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joeball
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:03 pm
Joined: 24 Jul 2005Posts: 5019Location: Over the bridge and up the hill
Oh man. You and me both. I built up that old WI rear hub and had a helluva time getting the spokes seated as well.
Joined: 23 Sep 2008Posts: 459Location: North Beach
on the topic of spoke ranting, I decided to trust a local bike shop for once after months to sell a spoke of the right length. Had the wheel with the shop, they "tested" it, lacing it in there, twisting the nipple on. By the time I was miles away, realized they were totally off by like 4mm, probably enough to go through one of the thorny-proof tubes. Just one easy thing and they messed up, wtf. I think they even had a spoke dye/lathe thingy.
Last edited by limpyweta on Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:16 am; edited 1 time in total _________________ Alec
Alex
Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:16 am
Joined: 18 May 2006Posts: 2639Location: Roosevelt
I'm giving up on online databases of rims and hubs and just measuring myself. The last couple of wheels that I've built have been off. On the last one I "fixed" it by purchasing a rim with a smaller enough ERD to make the spokes work out.
Shops often use the same online databases, so they can have the same problems.
I miss the DT hub and rim measuring poster with spoke length tables from The Bikesmith. ABR has the same one. It's a nice completely analog way to get spoke lengths and the results were always spot on.
joeball
Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:26 am
Joined: 24 Jul 2005Posts: 5019Location: Over the bridge and up the hill
Yeah, I have learned the hard now to do a lot of checks. I don't do them all of the time but unlacing a wheel is no fun.
-Measure the hub, compare to online databases
-ERD, I don't have the tools to measure but I properly but I usually check the online databases and the manufacturer sites to try to get 2 sources.
Double check the holes in the rim (once had a vendor send a 36 vs 32 hole rim)
-Spoke Calc: I've used the DTswiss site for most of my builds, recently I tried freespoke.
-Spokes: Measure spokes when I get them, especially if they were not cut in front of me. Buy one or two extra, good to have a spare on hand and just as a hedge against if the threads are bad on any of the other spokes (hapened at least once to me)
daywalkerJoined: 09 Nov 2007Posts: 4927Location: Hatertown
This is fantastic advice. I've had those same things happen, and come to the same conclusions.
I've started keeping a small DB of my own hubs for my own purposes - I don't like having to re-measure. I'll double check it against popular DBs to ensure I'm in the ballpark, but that's the extent of my reliance. I also double check my spoke lengths in a couple different spoke calcs - though to be fair this is largely because I'm still not totally confident in my ability to do this right. There's a lot of measure 2 or 3 times right now.
Or I'll take hub and rim down to Recycled and put the onus on them to cut proper lengths. They only botched it once (it was a new guy) and fixed it immediately. Prices for custom cut spokes are some of the best in town, and their turn around is nothing to sneeze at (usually will do them on the spot). You can get cheaper by ordering from Dans Comp (about 50%!!!), but you'll wait a week for them to arrive, and the onus is on you to provide the right lengths. If you screw up - or they do - it'll take another week to get more spokes. So there is a trade off.
I'm glad this thread is getting some action. Was starting to feel like Doug's Thread, but you know - mine. :)
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tehschkott
Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:38 pm
daywalkerJoined: 09 Nov 2007Posts: 4927Location: Hatertown
Jimmy are you sure you didn't accidentally get your spoke sides swapped? (Take spokes from right side, put on left..,?)
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jimmythefly
Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:08 pm
Joined: 10 Jan 2007Posts: 1005
Almost 100% sure. But it was late and I was frustrated, so I'll need to double check again tonight.
caustic meatloaf
Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:21 pm
All Paid UpJoined: 06 Dec 2010Posts: 2193Location: A hammy melange
Hmmm. Would it be worth it to just get a spoke threading machine? Not that Phill Wood abortion for $3K, but the $180 jobber from Hozan. That way you'd know the lengths were right - or at least know who to get mad at if they're wrong.
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tehschkott
Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:31 pm
daywalkerJoined: 09 Nov 2007Posts: 4927Location: Hatertown
no
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MyNameIsJeff
Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:34 pm
BOOSH!Joined: 17 Jul 2007Posts: 1418Location: Nearest bar.
Fucked it.
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Alex
Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:51 am
Joined: 18 May 2006Posts: 2639Location: Roosevelt
I have the Hozan. It's not worth $180, but used for $50 they are handy. It is mostly worth it for making one spare spoke at a time, it is annoying to cut down a whole wheels worth.
caustic meatloaf
Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:30 am
All Paid UpJoined: 06 Dec 2010Posts: 2193Location: A hammy melange
Duly noted. How are spokes mass produced? Obviously my google-fu is weak in finding anything between $180 and $3000 online. And I'm too lazy to head the 1/4 mile to Bike So Good and ask.
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Ductape
Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:54 am
Joined: 06 Mar 2010Posts: 127Location: Suburbia
I finally started putting together my 37 Schwinn C klunker project today and hit my first issue. The not really exciting but era correct and freshly chromed Tange fork I have been saving for the project is a bit short in steerer tube length. I know someone I trust out of town that will cut/add/replace the steerer to the right length. Low budget build, I would prefer not to ship.
Is there anyone here local who would do this for a reasonable price....
Thanks,
T
Alex
Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:32 pm
Joined: 18 May 2006Posts: 2639Location: Roosevelt
You could check with Colin. I've done it on my own bikes, but it is about the least comfortable thing for me to do because it is a repair that is hard to inspect.
Yesterday I picked up the Travel Gifford from Seattle Powdercoat, where it came out a very nice pumpkin orange. I built it up, showed Scott how to pack it into a suitcase, and now it is off to Australia.
Tomorrow I'm not doing anything bikey, but I am dropping the mast on my sailboat to take care of a few things (new halyards, topping lift, anchor light, windex). Hopefully that goes well and swiftly and a few of us can go sailing in the afternoon on Lake Union (where my boat is moored).
Andrew_Squirrel
Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:38 pm
Joined: 01 Mar 2010Posts: 1068Location: Ravenna
I heard that you can fit an entire S&S coupled bike in a Kangaroo pocket. Scott, can you verify?
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daywalker
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