Joined: 28 Jul 2007Posts: 1315Location: Columbia City
I'm thinking of buying a truing stand. When I first built my wheels 5 years or so ago, I used my office mate's Park TS-8:
Which worked out fine for me. I know that at least some of you have the Professional model:
And there are others. What's the hive-mind consensus? Is it worth the extra cost for the pro model? Are there other contenders that are worth thinking about?
Also, someone needs to teach me about building and truing wheels with dish.
tehschkott
Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:17 pm
daywalkerJoined: 09 Nov 2007Posts: 6108Location: Hatertown
Do a TS2.2 and never be disappointed. You can get the cheaper TS2.0 if you never plan to do 29er wheels.
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TorreyK
Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:23 pm
Joined: 02 Sep 2009Posts: 1116Location: White Center/Burien
For dishing wheels, I use the bottom of a standard sheet music stand: 3 pivoting legs with a locking mechanism. The inner diameter of the stand fits perfectly over the hub axle. Got one used for just a couple bucks. Flipping the base over to the other side of the hub lets me know the dish based on whether the center tube is raised off the hub when the legs touch the rim or if the legs don't touch when the center tube is on the end of the hub.
tl;dr -> folding base of music stand for dishing wheels.
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jeff
Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:48 pm
SOC pussyJoined: 05 May 2006Posts: 4501
Truing stand has saved me more money than any single tool in my box.
saccade
Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:27 pm
Joined: 19 May 2009Posts: 323Location: monkey lab
When truing a dished wheel you might notice that drive side spokes will adjust more radially, non drive side spokes adjust more laterally. Taking this to the extreme there's a technique that lets you actually build dished wheels faster than undished.
After you lace, completely ignore the non drive side spokes. Just bring the drive side up to about 60 - 70% of target tension, get the tension even and the wheel round. Don't worry about lateral true at all, just focus on roundness and even tension.
Only then start working on non drive side to bring it into dish and lateral true. You already did most of the work on radial true so this goes rather quickly. And this lets you reach a good high drive side tension without getting frustrated by all the windup.
I've had a TS-2 for almost 10 years now, I ponied up and got one as part of the cost when building up my first wheel. I've really enjoyed it. The cheap, lightweight would frustrate me, especially when it feels like you could do as well with a pair of zipties on your frame. At $100 the TS-8 is not that cheap either.
I think the TS-2.2 can take wider hubs a la fat bikes and it accommodate mounted 29er tires. I don't like truing a wheel with the tire mounted though since I don't think the subtle fine tuning is as easy. So if you find a TS-2 great, but other wise the TS-2.2 is the updated version. They hold their value too so don;t expect to find a cheap used one. That is a perk if you ever have to sell though.
Eventually I also got a dish stick and tension gage too which make for a fun evening when I have a new wheel to build.
Also there is a philips head screw driver that you can turn into a cheap nipple driver by just grinding off two of the opposing "blades" so that it becomes a pointed flat tip.
limpyweta
Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:56 pm
Joined: 23 Sep 2008Posts: 740Location: North Beach
Have folks around here tried truing with a ruler or other gauges strapped to the frame, with brake setups that don't need a smaller margin? I guess rubber bands would be ok for radial truing this way.
I just align the frame and dropouts, which can be done with string, a ruler (Sheldon), and some hardware, then eyeball the wheel in place for dishing. For dropout alignment tools made up of long carriage bolts, the long end nuts for making a reading should have pretty much have no play. Not hitting chainstays, adjusting brakes to be in the right place, and a more stable wheel are my only benchmarks.
I don't know if adequately aligning a fork would need more than a level, a hub, string, a pen, a vise, a long stick, and something to hold the steerer tube between the vise jaws.
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Chip McShoulder
Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:21 am
dog licking ice cream coneJoined: 11 Aug 2008Posts: 3022Location: Rainbow Road
limpyweta wrote:
I don't know if adequately aligning a fork would need more than a level, a hub, string, a pen, a vise, a long stick, and something to hold the steerer tube between the vise jaws.
You also need three french hens, two turtle doves, and an FM radio.
Joined: 28 Jul 2007Posts: 1315Location: Columbia City
So the TS2 can't do 29er wheels, even with the tires off?
Andrew_Squirrel
Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:42 am
Joined: 01 Mar 2010Posts: 2098Location: Greenwood
joeball wrote:
They hold their value too so don;t expect to find a cheap used one. That is a perk if you ever have to sell though.
So true, I've been seeking a used one for years.
tehschkott
Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:42 am
daywalkerJoined: 09 Nov 2007Posts: 6108Location: Hatertown
Ironically it was Alec who sold me his TS2.0 truing stand - evidently in favor of this.
Can't tell if genius or insane.
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tehschkott
Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:46 am
daywalkerJoined: 09 Nov 2007Posts: 6108Location: Hatertown
rob wrote:
So the TS2 can't do 29er wheels, even with the tires off?
Rob - it will do 29er wheels with the tires off. So building up new, you're fine.
However if you do tubeless like many of us rolling 29ers do, you'd need to remove the tire to later true the wheel - frankly it's a show stopper for me.
No way am I removing a tire and going through the work of getting it re-seated and re-sealed just so I can true it up. Turns a minor job into a major one.
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rob
Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:50 am
Joined: 28 Jul 2007Posts: 1315Location: Columbia City
Hmmm, I've got a lead on a gently used TS2 for 175 that also includes the base. I'm inclined to go for it, because if I decide to do tubeless 29ers in teh future, I can always either sell it for what I got it for, or else buy the extensions.
tehschkott
Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:52 am
daywalkerJoined: 09 Nov 2007Posts: 6108Location: Hatertown
Way too expensive for a 2.0. You can find a 2.0 for around $100~$125. If you're going to drop $175 you might as well pony up the extra $25~$35 and get the TS2.2 ATMO.
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rob
Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:53 am
Joined: 28 Jul 2007Posts: 1315Location: Columbia City
Hmmm, maybe my google-fu is not strong today...
tehschkott
Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:55 am
daywalkerJoined: 09 Nov 2007Posts: 6108Location: Hatertown
Was just doing the same. Hm. I mean, it's on you but if you're going to drop that kind of loot - well in a week you won't even remember that $35.
Edit - with base? Fuck it. Do it I say.
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joeball
Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:59 am
Joined: 24 Jul 2005Posts: 6037Location: Ether
If you use the price smash for one of the other sites that lists the TS2.2 for $214 you can get an additional 5% off, that should bring it to about $205. Shipping might eat up those savings though.
http://www.cambriabike.com/shopexd.asp?id=91685
I don't think the base is essential. Lee bolted my TS-2 to an old piece of 2x8 over 7 years ago when he borrowed it and I haven't bothered to upgrade it to anything fancier since.
tehschkott
Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:18 am
daywalkerJoined: 09 Nov 2007Posts: 6108Location: Hatertown
I agree, it's not essential. I've bolted it to a board just fine. Or ziptied it to a milk crate without issue. But it sorta is nice. Little trays on it are pretty handy for holding nipples and whatnot.
I still say you're better off with the 2.2 than the 2.0, but if you're counting your pennies you might as well go for the bro deal in front of you.
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Bo Ttorff
Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:41 am
GO SEAHAWKS!! 12 for LYFEJoined: 20 Jul 2011Posts: 3092Location: King County
pro tip: when going for the timber base always mount with the bark side down as it will cup that way giving you a more stable work surface.
caustic meatloaf
Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:13 pm
Joined: 06 Dec 2010Posts: 1235537Location: a hammy melange...
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rob
Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:29 pm
Joined: 28 Jul 2007Posts: 1315Location: Columbia City
I think I'm leaning towards a TS2.2. The TS2 on CL is like 70 minutes away by car, and cars are full of suck.
tehschkott
Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:36 pm
daywalkerJoined: 09 Nov 2007Posts: 6108Location: Hatertown
Bo Ttorff wrote:
pro tip: when going for the timber base always mount with the bark side down as it will cup that way giving you a more stable work surface.
We in point83 value a good cupping.
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rob
Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:44 pm
Joined: 28 Jul 2007Posts: 1315Location: Columbia City
OK, next related question. I see the spoke tension meter on Andre's work station. Sheldon Brown made some noise about being just being able 'listen' to the noise the spokes make if you spin the wheel and let the spokes hit your fingernail or some shit. That didn't work out all that well for me, and I had to re-true my wheels every week or so for a month or so before they stayed true.
So is a tension meter worth it?
lantius
Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:10 pm
1337Joined: 22 Jul 2005Posts: 6705Location: right over
After I do a few wheels in a row, the pinging works for me. But when I've been lazy all summer, the tensiometer is key for recalibrating my brain.
Andrew_Squirrel
Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:26 am
Joined: 01 Mar 2010Posts: 2098Location: Greenwood
Speaking of Park TM-1, this showed up on flickr today:
daywalkerJoined: 09 Nov 2007Posts: 6108Location: Hatertown
That's funny cause Blakey - the lad who posted that pic - was my Tarck-bro bikey contact in Melbourne. Nice fella.
I have the Tension Meter and once in awhile I'll break it out, but usually regret it when I do. I just go by feel.
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Alex
Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:23 am
Joined: 18 May 2006Posts: 3128Location: Roosevelt
Of course you could also calibrate it by hanging a 105kg weight from a 1.8mm (15g) spoke and adjusting the tensionometer to read 21. That is a little easier to setup in a typical basement shop and doesn't require anything more than an accurate human scale (good for measuring 105kg), a floor joist (to hang things from), and some type of weight.
I like using the tensionometer. I can do it by ear, but unless I spot check I sometimes end up with spoke tensions that increase very slightly around the wheel because my sense of pitch isn't super accurate.
limpyweta
Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:50 am
Joined: 23 Sep 2008Posts: 740Location: North Beach
I'm short on physics and mechanics, so how relevant is calibrating a meter by just hanging something off the spoke, when the amount of resistance to change the horizontal motion of the spoke head is not nearly as much as the amount of this horizontal resistance from a built wheel?
Is there a detailed standard or set of theories/laws rim manufacturers and spoke tension meter makers use to make any spoke tension specs accurate enough across brands?
Last edited by limpyweta on Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:32 am; edited 1 time in total _________________ Alec
caustic meatloaf
Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:40 am
Joined: 06 Dec 2010Posts: 1235537Location: a hammy melange...
In short, yes. However, knowing the specifics of the physics of springs and elasticity is not something you need to really be concerned about when calibrating a tensionometer.
Empirical calibration works to a reasonably accurate degree because
1)We don't need 1% force tolerances
2)The vast majority of force experienced by a spoke will be longitudinally oriented, so hanging a weight accurately simulates the same force
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Alex
Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:26 am
Joined: 18 May 2006Posts: 3128Location: Roosevelt
Spokes are only structurally effective in tension. Have you tried bending one (very easy) or pushing one into compression?
Hanging also puts the spoke in tension.
Most rim manufacturers recommend between 100kg and 120kg of spoke tension maximum. You can get this data from the more helpful ones. For the less helpful ones there is a procedure in The Bicycle Wheel to determine maximum safe spoke tension. Jobst Brandt's method for finding maximum tension is most effective on box section and U section rims though, not aero or triple box section rims. I aim for 115kg and my wheels have typically held up well.
tehschkott
Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:23 am
daywalkerJoined: 09 Nov 2007Posts: 6108Location: Hatertown
Turns out Blakey did a little more clarification over on tarck - thought I'd sahre.
Blakey wrote:
In wheel nerdery, my LBS were concerned about the calibration of their TM-1s, so I busted out the heavy machinery and checked. Turns out an indicated 100kgf was closer to 60, even though they both measured within 0.5-1 park unit of each other.
I like using the tension meter to check and fine tune the tension at the end of a build. Maybe a more experienced builder wouldn't need one, but I've built fewer than 20 wheels and find it useful.
Before using the tension meter my wheels held up fine but I always seemed to have one spoke that would work loose. Don't have that problem any more.
Last batch of wheels I settled on the procedure I'll use from now on: I built by feel until the wheel started to come close to full tension. Then I used a spreadsheet and tension meter to fix uneven areas and get tension to the desired amount, within 5% variance.
The spreadsheet may be overkill, and a substitute for skill, but by the 4th and 5th wheel I was a lot faster from start of lacing to finish than before, and with a better wheel than I was doing before. Besides, I like data, and the round graph the spreadsheet makes is really really cool.
archie
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:33 am
Joined: 21 Jul 2011Posts: 149Location: cloud nine
Bo Ttorff wrote:
pro tip: when going for the timber base always mount with the bark side down as it will cup that way giving you a more stable work surface.
I love mounting my timber base with the bark side down
Bo Ttorff
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:39 pm
GO SEAHAWKS!! 12 for LYFEJoined: 20 Jul 2011Posts: 3092Location: King County
archie wrote:
Bo Ttorff wrote:
pro tip: when going for the timber base always mount with the bark side down as it will cup that way giving you a more stable work surface.
I love mounting my timber base with the bark side down
FTFY
joeball
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:59 pm
Joined: 24 Jul 2005Posts: 6037Location: Ether
Uncupped
Bo Ttorff
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:16 pm
GO SEAHAWKS!! 12 for LYFEJoined: 20 Jul 2011Posts: 3092Location: King County
A fine example of Ts 2.2 Doug fir base Joeball. That piece is as uncupped as a brave catcher.
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