Joined: 25 Jul 2005Posts: 5547Location: Columbia City
Ahoy my bikeries. My mongrel 3/8 Campimano drivetrain is about out of gas, and I'm considering an over-winter reboot. What are you liking these days? I'm looking to have my smallest/easiest gears in the low 20s with enough high-end to keep up with y'all, win the Cat6 commute, etc. Price is a consideration.
I'm looking at the Sram 2x10 doubletap, 11-36 cassette with... I dunno. 46x28 mbt cranks? I dunno, it's been years since I've had to research this stuff.
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axel
Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:09 pm
Joined: 15 Feb 2013Posts: 1654Location: St Johns PDX
if you go with SRAM, the cheap Apex groupset comes with a 11-32 cassette that you can pair with a 48/34 crankset. should be enough range to handle most anything.
I'd go lower than 34f32r. I've found 30f32r to be pretty perfect for me w/ 650bx42 tires, maybe even rarely wanting one small step lower, debating a 28f32r lowest gear on a future build. 28f36r seems like probably overkill unless you're planning to ride very heavy up some serious terrain. 11-32 is already quite a spread for a 10 speed cassette and I'd imagine 11-36 would be a little spread out. I'd probably compensate with your chainrings and keep the spread a little tighter in the back. That's my two cents. Definitely don't have the experience of many here though.
dennyt
Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:25 pm
rocket mechanicJoined: 02 Aug 2005Posts: 2708
On my Wolverine I'm running Sugino 30-44 front and Shimano 11-36 10spd rear, with 105 STI shifters and a shimano 9 speed mountain derailleur. They changed the cable pull on the 10 speed mountain shifters & derailleurs, but 9spd mountain derailleur works with 10spd road STI shifters on a 10spd cassette.
30/36 low gear (23.3in) is great for climbing forest roads with overnight gear, although not faster than walking, which can be a refreshing change of pace.
Top gear of 44/11 (112in) is fine for touring but if you are a hardcore CAT6er, you will want higher.
Alex
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:51 pm
Joined: 18 May 2006Posts: 3128Location: Roosevelt
Just lock out cogs on your rear cassette to see if you can survive with higher low gears. Gearing preferences are quite personal, and what works well for one might not work for another.
I like my low gears because I like to pedal at high cadences. I like 42/28 with an 11-34 9sp cassette and have that setup on both of my bikes with derailleurs.
langston
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:15 pm
Joined: 25 Jul 2005Posts: 5547Location: Columbia City
Thank you all for the input, some very good points in there. It would be nice to do fully loaded touring on this rig which by definition is very-heavy and often very steep in legs.
Historically I've always had a triple to do the worst of the climbing, stretching the limits of gear design. I did a week with Donovan's bike with the 2x10 and was blown away with out crisp, clean and useful the gearing on that bike was. With that in mind, I'm considering tech that is newer so I'm probably done with 9spd at the moment.
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the dreaded ben
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:50 pm
Grumpy GreebJoined: 20 Aug 2005Posts: 5329Location: flavor country
11 sp 105 grouppo is $375 on the euro websites like merlin.
A + would buy again.
ba3bous
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:56 pm
Joined: 24 Aug 2014Posts: 292Location: NYC
I have an 11 speed 105 group on my elephant, compact front (50-34) and a large cassette (11-32). I've personally been quite happy with the gear range, it's taken me up Terry Ave. between Pike and Union a couple of times when I was feeling a bit masochistic.
joeball
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:58 pm
Joined: 24 Jul 2005Posts: 6037Location: Ether
I thought the touring facade was over by now?
IMO a triple still has its place on a bike used for touring. But I don't see that much touring going on.
If you want a nimble, useful daily rider, weekend camper, and get rad rig then a wide range, double is hard to beat. 2x10 or 2x9.
langston
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:16 pm
Joined: 25 Jul 2005Posts: 5547Location: Columbia City
joeball wrote:
I thought the touring facade was over by now?
I average a week+ a year fully loaded Andre. It's not the defining characteristic I'm building around as I'm not planning a cross-country ride anytime soon but I would like to keep the week+ long trips in play without major work.
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Andrew_Squirrel
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:17 pm
Joined: 01 Mar 2010Posts: 2098Location: Greenwood
Going from a triple chainring touring bike to 2x10 (or 2x11) with a 46/30 and up to 12-36t rear cog has been a significant upgrade to me.
I love being in the big ring 90% of the time yet having the range available to drop down into a 30-36 combo when the world gets steep & bumpy and my bike gets heavy with camping gear.
Previously I never realized how often I was changing between big & middle chainring on my touring triple. It ends up feeling unnecessary upon re-inspection and I hate being worried that i'm "cross chaining" when I want to climb the cassette in my big ring and not mess with the front derailleur.
The 46-36 front-rear ratio on my Elephant doesn't feel as cross-chained as an equivalent triple and I will often change to that ratio when bombing long, bumpy roads to work in conjunction with a clutch derailleur and prevent the chain from going apeshit. It's also nice that I can easily climb many of Seattle's steeper hills in the big ring and mindlessly do all the shifting with one hand and no need for visual verification of where I am on the front and rear.
caustic meatloaf
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:36 pm
Joined: 06 Dec 2010Posts: 1235537Location: a hammy melange...
Hmm. I'm currently running a triple front, 11-28 rear on my ride, and I have been considering moving to a compact double simply because I'm rarely ever in the big ring for very long, and I also very rarely use the granny - often just on some short hills and that's about it.
Would it benefit me to look for a wider rear cassette and move to a compact double?
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Andrew_Squirrel
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:44 pm
Joined: 01 Mar 2010Posts: 2098Location: Greenwood
I think so.
I'm also starting to believe 1x10 or 1x11 with a narrow-wide chainring & wide rear cassette could benefit most casual Seattle commuters that dislike futzing with FD shifts and want to simplify their setup with a single rear shifter.
blasdelf
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:36 pm
BAD NAVIGATORJoined: 01 Mar 2010Posts: 1505
axel wrote:
if you go with SRAM, the cheap Apex groupset comes with a 11-32 cassette
They mistakenly marketed it that way five years ago, but all their model lines have medium-cage derailleur options and 32t cassettes, Shimano too. Apex ain't special.
axel wrote:
that you can pair with a 48/34 crankset
If you're gonna go out of your way for a nerd chainrings instead of getting a cheap awesome-shifting 50/34, you should get something for your trouble with a 46/30 crankset that actually nets better ratios
more expensive and much less durable than real integrated shifters
the horrific ergonomics are just a bonus
TorreyK
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:05 pm
Joined: 02 Sep 2009Posts: 1116Location: White Center/Burien
stay away from gevenalle/retro-shift.
i am all about andrew S. gearing and plan on moving that way soon-ish.
group: are there any production 46/30 crankset options aside from the extra fancy White Ind. cranks?
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axel
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:36 pm
Joined: 15 Feb 2013Posts: 1654Location: St Johns PDX
the dreaded ben wrote:
11 sp 105 group is $375 on the euro websites like merlin.
A + would buy again.
yep this is what I would have suggested had langston not orginally requested SRAM. works fine and is by far the cheapest way to go.
TorreyK wrote:
i am all about andrew S. gearing and plan on moving that way soon-ish.
the Shimano CX70 46/36 is the best shifting front crankset I've ever used.
blasdelf wrote:
axel wrote:
if you go with SRAM, the cheap Apex groupset comes with a 11-32 cassette
They mistakenly marketed it that way five years ago, but all their model lines have medium-cage derailleur options and 32t cassettes, Shimano too. Apex ain't special.
nothing special about it at all other than price. if langston wants to spend more locally for Force or Rival, that's up to him. if he shops around on those outlet sites I imagine he can get one of those groupsets for pricing competitive to Apex.
blasdelf wrote:
axel wrote:
that you can pair with a 48/34 crankset
If you're gonna go out of your way for a nerd chainrings instead of getting a cheap awesome-shifting 50/34, you should get something for your trouble with a 46/30 crankset that actually nets better ratios
if you know of a 46/30 crank that's cheaper, please share as I'm not aware of one and would be interested to know more. either 50/34 or 48/34 are options for Apex. personally I prefer having smaller big rings.
more expensive and much less durable than real integrated shifters
the horrific ergonomics are just a bonus
buy these only to annoy fred. there's really no other reason to mess with them. personally I don't mind as much, although not being able to shift worth a damn at all from the drops is pretty awful.
they do make a fairly cheap BURD rear derailleur that's just as good as a 105. it's short-cage and doesn't have a clutch, but if both of those aren't deal breakers than it's another option to consider.
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joeball
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:24 pm
Joined: 24 Jul 2005Posts: 6037Location: Ether
langston wrote:
joeball wrote:
I thought the touring facade was over by now?
I average a week+ a year fully loaded Andre. It's not the defining characteristic I'm building around as I'm not planning a cross-country ride anytime soon but I would like to keep the week+ long trips in play without major work.
Wasn't a dig at you. "touring bike", "cyclocross bike", "gravel grinder" have all been used as niche titles for bikes that tout being optimized for one type of riding. Which is fine and all, just so long as they don't suck if they are being ridden a different way for 95% of the time.
If you step up to the plate and are ready to buy into the current state of the technology just be sure to follow through and get a complete system.
Alex
Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:26 am
Joined: 18 May 2006Posts: 3128Location: Roosevelt
TorreyK wrote:
stay away from gevenalle/retro-shift.
i am all about andrew S. gearing and plan on moving that way soon-ish.
group: are there any production 46/30 crankset options aside from the extra fancy White Ind. cranks?
Sugino XD601 and XD801. Sometimes $200 on sale, normally more like $300-500. They are 110/74 doubles with external bearings.
There is a huge difference between 50/34 and 44/30. 42/28 is where it's at for me, but my rear cassettes go to 32, not 36.
Alex
Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:30 am
Joined: 18 May 2006Posts: 3128Location: Roosevelt
The cheap option is to take an old 110/74 touring triple and replace the outer ring with a bash guard. The q-factor is wider than a purpose built double, but it works otherwise and is good for experimentation.
tehschkott
Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:14 am
daywalkerJoined: 09 Nov 2007Posts: 6108Location: Hatertown
I like this thread.
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donavanm
Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:40 pm
Joined: 14 Jun 2012Posts: 1342
Andrew_Squirrel wrote:
I'm also starting to believe 1x10 or 1x11 with a narrow-wide chainring & wide rear cassette could benefit most casual Seattle commuters that dislike futzing with FD shifts and want to simplify their setup with a single rear shifter.
Yes, it is. Ive been running a single 42 front 10sp 11-36 rear for about two years. Way more range than I need in town. Was perfect for a week of touring in uk/nl and a bunch of weekend trips in ie. Just enough range for various trips in the cascades & olympics. I did a week of overnight trips in lake tahoe/sierras last summer. In that case it wasnt quite low enough to ride everything as the elevation winded me.
The small double and wide rear is a great trend. Its what ive got/moving to on my touring stuff. For my NFE Im tempted to do single 38 or 40 and a 11-42 rear.
rob
Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:31 pm
Joined: 28 Jul 2007Posts: 1315Location: Columbia City
Along these same lines, with similar usage to what Langston's asking about, can someone please explain to me reasons why I shouldn't go 1xN internal speed hub with a belt drive?
blasdelf
Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:52 pm
BAD NAVIGATORJoined: 01 Mar 2010Posts: 1505
rob wrote:
Along these same lines, with similar usage to what langston's asking about, can someone please explain to me reasons why I shouldn't go 1xN internal speed hub with a belt drive?
internal gear hubs are awesome with an ebb or sliding dropouts
the Alfine Di2 stuff is surprisingly affordable, and you can get hydraulic drop bar levers as a fully supported shifter
belt drives are expensive, complicate every problem they purport to solve, and add some new ones
if you don't want the possibility of chain grime on anything get a Hebie Chainglider
axel
Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:05 pm
Joined: 15 Feb 2013Posts: 1654Location: St Johns PDX
a recent interesting read on the topic of mixing/matching road and mountain drivetrain components and dealing with incompatibility.
not saying one should actually do any of this, but it's always fun to see what builders are trying to hack together.
That bike is sexy.
Alex
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:52 pm
Joined: 18 May 2006Posts: 3128Location: Roosevelt
rob wrote:
Along these same lines, with similar usage to what langston's asking about, can someone please explain to me reasons why I shouldn't go 1xN internal speed hub with a belt drive?
IGH yes, belt no.
I sit about 100' away from you and have an IGH bike in my office most days. Come take it for a lunchtime ride.
The only real downside of the IGH is that they work best with custom built frames, and that sends you down a potentially expensive rabbit hole. It doesn't need to lead to building your own frames, though it did for me.
blasdelf
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:58 pm
BAD NAVIGATORJoined: 01 Mar 2010Posts: 1505
axel wrote:
not saying one should actually do any of this
yeah the eccentric shim is cool, I've recommended that to people especially with the long-armed 11s FDs
but if you're building the bike from scratch why not use a braze-on front derailleur and just mount it exactly where you need it?
the Jtek adapter is completely unnecessary, he could have bought a XT-M772 derailleur that works perfectly with those shifters and matches everything else
zach
Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:52 pm
Joined: 29 Dec 2013Posts: 139Location: Ballard
TorreyK wrote:
stay away from gevenalle/retro-shift.
i am all about andrew S. gearing and plan on moving that way soon-ish.
group: are there any production 46/30 crankset options aside from the extra fancy White Ind. cranks?
There are options for 46/30 other than White Industries and the Sugino options Alex mentioned.
* IRD Defiant 46/30 94bcd compact double square taper (most affordable I could find and what I'm using on my Rambler) cheapest I know is from boulder bicycle http://boulderbicycle.bike/IRD-Compact-Crank-46-30-assorted-lengths.html
* Middleburn (UK) has a double square taper crankset R01 super compact w/ 94bcd but I'm not sure where best to find those. I only barely know about this option but I heard they also have non-square taper 94bcd cranks which I can't back up that information. http://www.middleburn.co.uk/products/cranks/road-touring-cyclo-x/94bcd-super-compact
* Rene Herse makes cranks that can do it but they are super expensive and I (and most others) would rather just have white industries if going to that price level
A few months ago I picked one up for $50 off retail to put on my beater/commuter Trek 720. Unfortunately looks like the sale is over now which was the only reason I picked one up.
jimmythefly
Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:23 pm
Joined: 10 Jan 2007Posts: 1491
TorreyK wrote:
group: are there any production 46/30 crankset options aside from the extra fancy White Ind. cranks?
Surly Mr. Whirly.
The Middleburn RS8 X-type is a modern 2-piece crank with integrated 24mm spindle that uses Shimano external BBs. You can getr a 94 bcd spider for the arms and run 46/30 that way.
IRD Mjolnir
TA Carmina
Lots of 4-arm MTB cranks
langston
Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 12:19 pm
Joined: 25 Jul 2005Posts: 5547Location: Columbia City
Okay, got me some sexy Rival 10spd shifters for xmas. For the cassette- 11-36T or 12-36T
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donavanm
Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 12:25 pm
Joined: 14 Jun 2012Posts: 1342
Has anyone tried the new sunrace stuff? Their 10 & 11 sp wide range casettes are very adfordable. And the 11sp (10-42!) fits on a standard hyperglide freehub.
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