AAAARRRRRGGGGbllll pppphtt!Joined: 26 Aug 2006Posts: 725Location: In the lab.
Raleigh doesn't make the bikes they used to.
---Bicycle recall: Raleigh America and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission are recalling 1,200 Chinese-made Raleigh Cadent bikes with Carbonage Technology carbon fiber forks. The forks can break during normal use, causing the rider to lose control and fall. Raleigh has received three reports of fork failures, resulting in a dislocated shoulder, a concussion and a broken jaw. The recall involves the 2007 Raleigh Cadent 1.0, Cadent 2.0 and Cadent Carbon bicycle models with carbon forks. They were sold at Raleigh dealers nationwide from January through June 2007 for $660-$1,930. If you own one of these bikes, stop riding it and take it to the place of purchase for a free fork replacement. For more information, call Raleigh America toll-free at 888-805-6396 during 9-5 PT weekdays, or visit
_________________ In der Not frisst der Teufel Fliegen.
Joined: 02 Aug 2007Posts: 649Location: Inside a Bell
john wrote:
The forks can break during normal use, causing the rider to lose control and fall.
Translation: fly through the air while performing a snowboard-worthy 780, before crashing into something unyielding and abrasive with a flank or appendage (your head is an appendage). Extra style points if your bike is still attached to your feet when the paramedics show up.
The steel nazis have a point... then again I'm sure there have been recalls of steel frames or forks. In my occasional moments of equipment failure paranoia it is the failure of my front fork that strikes the most fear into my heart. Is it as bad as I think it can be?
_________________ If the river was whiskey I'd turn myself into a duck, I'd dive to the bottom and never come up.
Alex
Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:46 am
Joined: 18 May 2006Posts: 3128Location: Roosevelt
[quote="vaticdart"]
john wrote:
The steel nazis have a point... then again I'm sure there have been recalls of steel frames or forks. In my occasional moments of equipment failure paranoia it is the failure of my front fork that strikes the most fear into my heart. Is it as bad as I think it can be?
Front fork and stem are the two areas that I'm most afraid of having fail.
Bridgestone had one of their forks recalled (I think it was the 1993 RB-1, but I could be wrong). It was an issue in the casting of the fork crown.
Steel failures don't tend to be catestrophic, so you know long before they happen. I did have a steerer crack on a folding bike (the company no longer uses this design):
You can see the crack at the base of the threads. From the time that I first noticed something being wonky I was able to ride about 10 miles (noticing it get slightly wonkier over time) before stopping at Bikesmith to investigate. The crack was only about 25% of the way around the steerer when I stopped. It was probably at 5% and I didn't notice for many miles before I did notice anything.
I've spent very little time riding on carbon fiber bikes and did have one fail. The rear suspension wishbone cracked on a Jamis full suspension mountain bike. No warning, just went over a small bump and suddenly I was riding a bike with a very slack seat tube angle and 6" closer to the ground. They fixed that design before the bike went to market.
I have no interest in messing with carbon fiber forks, bars, or stems.
alex
john
Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:38 am
AAAARRRRRGGGGbllll pppphtt!Joined: 26 Aug 2006Posts: 725Location: In the lab.
the flip side is that I was handed a carbon fiber fork that had hit the ceiling of a parking garage and developed a crack and a bike shop owner just said "here, break it more" and I was able to make the crack run, but I was putting enough force on it that I would think would snap a normal steel fork, I'm not a small guy and my lat's can develop some significant force). It got me over my fear of CF componenets. The other nice thing, is that it cracked like bamboo and didn't fold like steel, hands down it failed a lot nicer than aluminum.
Corporations are pretty neurotic about liability and while it is fun to sow fear uncertainty and doubt about the CF thing... really... their underwriters have had them overbuild these things to avoid catastrophic failure.
I doubt I will ever have a CF frame, I am too much a titanium fetishist... but I think the FUD is a little more than is necessary. You can go colllecting cracked carbon fiber but you should have it set up next to a collection of other broken materials. I think a proper sampling size would provide an ANOVA that would not create a NH sepperating the materials into different breaking probabilities.
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Joined: 25 Jul 2005Posts: 268Location: somerville, ma
john the beast wrote:
I was putting enough force on it that I would think would snap a normal steel fork, I'm not a small guy and my lat's can develop some significant force.
Aaron
Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:46 pm
Joined: 25 Jul 2005Posts: 4645
Most carbon parts are now made in China. Raleigh is not the only company at fault. BIKES are not made the way they used to be, but neither are cars, houses, toasters, TVs, etc, etc. Americans want cheap shit and do not want to pay fair labor prices for anything! Yet we still want to MAKE a fair living.
We sold one of those bikes and the replacement fork they sent was NOT acceptable. The aluminum steer tube was bonded off center! We are now waiting on a replacement, replacement fork.
The only carbon forks I am comfortable selling are Alpha-Q.
They use steer tube "roots" that extend into the legs.
Not all carbon is the same! Depending on design carbon can fail like bamboo (sort of bend slowly), snap or crack. Most carbon, however, can still fail suddenly.
Here is my carbon fiber warning page with some good articles:
Not in the picture are the 2 cracked carbon fiber seatposts I found today!
TrikerTrev
Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:35 am
Joined: 23 Oct 2006Posts: 2303Location: FOCO, MOFO!!!
Aaron wrote:
Most carbon parts are now made in China. Raleigh is not the only company at fault. BIKES are not made the way they used to be, but neither are cars, houses, toasters, TVs, etc, etc. Americans want cheap shit and do not want to pay fair labor prices for anything! Yet we still want to MAKE a fair living.
now THERES something I can fully get behind you on!!!
(not like that ya pervert)
Carbon CAN be a very decent alternative to CrMo, Alum, Ti...If it's formed correctly and under the very best of conditions. Many years back I worked for Softride, making and testing those goofy seat tube, shock absorbing seat of rails. What a gawddamnpainintheass those were to fabricate! I learned alot about the benefits Carbon fiber...and the drawbacks...Aarons mass grave of parts is a testament to this.
As for me, I'll stay away from carbon for applications that my body uses dirctly (frames, forks, bars...okay I dont use any of those now, but ya get my point) and dammitall if we have to try to NOT buy the cheapshit made in china!
Steel failures don't tend to be catestrophic, so you know long before they happen. I did have a steerer crack on a folding bike (the company no longer uses this design):
alex
I disagree. Steel is especially susceptible to something called brittle fracture. At temperatures lower than a given transition temperature, steel fails catastrophically and very smoothly over preexisting flaws. These flaws usually get created in weld and rivet sites, although if your forging process isn't good you can get them anywhere.
The scary thing is depending on your specimen, the transitition temperature can be as high as room temperature in some especially susceptible alloys.
That said, I ride a carbon frame (a Trek), and I've rode great CrMo steel, Aluminum and carbon frames. I feel highly confident in any of their suitability and integrity, but I really like the plush, stiff ride of carbon. Maybe it helps that I have a friend who is a QA engineer for Trek and she took me on a tour and I got to see the manufacturing process. Although I will say there's a huge difference between their OCLV carbon and their TCT carbon. You can feel the difference between the lateral strengths and stiffness. Not surprisingly, the former is hand laid in Wisconsin, the latter is machine laid, not necessarily at the US factory.
I suppose the bottom line is Caveat Emptor. Some materials are easier to craft properly.
Aaron
Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:45 pm
Joined: 25 Jul 2005Posts: 4645
Alex said "tend". Carbon usually, fails suddenly. I have seen steel, carbon, aluminum and titanium frames all fail suddnenly. I think the difference here is that steel "tends" (usually, most of the time, often) give you a warning and therefore is a much safer material for bike frames. Also since bikes tend to be bumped around and get dents, steel is a good choice.
If you must have the latest greatest, get carbon, but if you want durability get steel. If you have loads of money, get titanium but if you are just a Joe/Jane Schmoe, your bike probably will be aluminum! But everyone knows that magnesium frames and thermoplastic wheels are the best!
If you wheels go out of true you just put them in the freezer.
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AAAARRRRRGGGGbllll pppphtt!
Joined: 26 Aug 2006
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Location: In the lab.
Joined: 02 Aug 2007
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