It was two bicyclists, one killed, the other injured. Still no identification released.
koos42
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:12 pm
Joined: 10 Jul 2007Posts: 367Location: ON YOUR LEFT! your other left.
komo wrote:
The name of the man who was killed has not been released. A lieutenant at the crash site said the victim was not a helmet (sic).
Nor was it likely that he was wearing one. I wonder what the nature of his injuries were. While it's possible that he may have died from a bonk on the head, if he was crushed by a fucking truck the helmet wouldn't have helped.
It is already starting to sound as if they're passing blame towards the bike...
I hope this wasn't any of us.
Last edited by koos42 on Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
lantius
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:14 pm
1337Joined: 22 Jul 2005Posts: 6705Location: right over
koos42 wrote:
komo wrote:
The name of the man who was killed has not been released. A lieutenant at the crash site said the victim was not a helmet.
the sad thing is that even though that's abundantly true, many discussions about this accident are going to focus on the helmet. komo's typo is frighteningly close to the mark.
MikeOD
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:17 pm
Joined: 04 Feb 2006Posts: 545
Here's a photo of one of the bikes - a yellow bike with bullhorns.
joeball
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:22 pm
Joined: 24 Jul 2005Posts: 6037Location: Ether
lantius wrote:
koos42 wrote:
komo wrote:
The name of the man who was killed has not been released. A lieutenant at the crash site said the victim was not a helmet.
the sad thing is that even though that's abundantly true, many discussions about this accident are going to focus on the helmet. komo's typo is frighteningly close to the mark.
Perhaps some one who took journalism class can remind me why there are key descriptors in accident/collision/injury reports.
Typical automotive ones are "seatbelt use" and "under the influence." I guess these are things that the public always wonders. I never wonder about helmets though but maybe that is because the only time I read about bikes accidents is when they get hit by a car.
Regardless this sucks, even sketchier when you know the intersection well, this is feet away from where Alex was hit earlier this year.
lantius
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:22 pm
1337Joined: 22 Jul 2005Posts: 6705Location: right over
Quote:
"It just appears to be a terrible accident at this point," said an officer at the scene. He said there's no indication of a right-of-way violation.
accident? right of way violation? either the bicycles had the right of way and the dump truck failed to see them and yield appropriately, or the dump truck had the right of way and the bicycles failed to yield.
as near as i can tell there are very, very few motor vehicle accidents, and a shit ton of fatalities caused by driver error.
rlotz
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:25 pm
Joined: 23 Jan 2006Posts: 311Location: Capitol Hill
Quote:
It just appears to be a terrible accident at this point," said an officer at the scene. He said there's no indication of a right-of-way violation.
When vehicles end up sharing the same space how could there not have been a right-of-way violation? I'm not suggesting we know whose fault it is, but vehicles don't just collide without someone (or someones) doing something stupid.
joeball
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:37 pm
Joined: 24 Jul 2005Posts: 6037Location: Ether
rlotz wrote:
Quote:
It just appears to be a terrible accident at this point," said an officer at the scene. He said there's no indication of a right-of-way violation.
When vehicles end up sharing the same space how could there not have been a right-of-way violation? I'm not suggesting we know whose fault it is, but vehicles don't just collide without someone (or someones) doing something stupid.
The majority of collisions are due in part to a failure to yield, but intended or not, human error is the cause. I don't like the term accident but it really sucks for both sides. It has to be just as painful for the truck driver and their family as for the two cyclists who were hit.
dennyt
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:43 pm
rocket mechanicJoined: 02 Aug 2005Posts: 2708
Quote:
"He... shouldn't have been trying to pass a dump truck on the right hand side on the curb to begin with," said witness Doug Edwards.
That's what we call the bike lane.
henry
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:46 pm
somewhat piggishJoined: 05 Aug 2005Posts: 5415Location: on porch with shotgun
dennyt wrote:
Quote:
"He... shouldn't have been trying to pass a dump truck on the right hand side on the curb to begin with," said witness Doug Edwards.
Passing on the right should not be illegal. Cars don't have to get completely out of our lane to pass, why should we return the favor. Plus the law forces us to the right side of the lane, often cars when they slow up to the point at which it is necessary for us to pass, there's no way for us to get to the left.
If they were on eastlake, there were bike lanes too! I'm unsure about Fuhrman.
koos42
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:59 pm
Joined: 10 Jul 2007Posts: 367Location: ON YOUR LEFT! your other left.
From the story on the wmv that they posted, it seems that the bikes were going down the bike lane, straight through the intersection, parallel to the truck. The truck made a right, and the bikes got hit. Drivers forget to check their mirrors and blind spots when they are turning corners and crossing bike lanes. I saw this almost happen to someone commuting near Stone Way two months ago. The best part was when the angry, nearly run-over biker gave the SUV a dirty look the SUV honked. Which brings up another problem, drivers who fail to use turn signals.
surlykat
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 5:27 pm
Joined: 05 Jul 2007Posts: 658Location: in the CD
koos42 wrote:
Which brings up another problem, drivers who fail to use turn signals.
Jesus fuck yes. Turn signals are fucking important. Funny how the news release doesn't mention if the dump truck had his turn signal on... it's all about the helmet. (Granted, helmets are important... anyone who has seen this picture of mine knows why i feel that way... ) but still... it sounds like a helmet would not have helped.
I've been trying to process this for the last 3 hours... I really, really hope it wasn't one of us, though I don't think it would make it any better if it was someone I didn't know.
rlotz
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:02 pm
Joined: 23 Jan 2006Posts: 311Location: Capitol Hill
I just road past the scene, it is my main route too and from work. Police still have everything roped off and are directing traffic. Someone had laid flowers down in the middle of the intersection. It made me choke up a little...right until some someone almost right hooked me pulling into a parking lot. It was even a fellow biodiesel user. :/
DJStroky
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:15 pm
Joined: 25 May 2007Posts: 356Location: Downtown Tacoma
Damn, this shit is crazy. I opted to put my bike on a bus to go home at 2:46pm, so if I would've biked home on Eastlake that could've been me.
As for fault, I don't want to point fingers at anyone. Yes there is a bike lane, and yes the truck driver made a legal right turn. It all must have happened in a split second. I have no idea how to make that intersection safer. I frequently am coming down Harvard at 30+ mph and taking a right up Eastlake to that corner. Maybe I'll go tighten my brakes a little bit more.
_________________ Tacoma isn't that bad... well maybe it is
surlykat
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:30 pm
Joined: 05 Jul 2007Posts: 658Location: in the CD
DJStroky wrote:
Damn, this shit is crazy. I opted to put my bike on a bus to go home at 2:46pm, so if I would've biked home on Eastlake that could've been me.
As for fault, I don't want to point fingers at anyone. Yes there is a bike lane, and yes the truck driver made a legal right turn. It all must have happened in a split second. I have no idea how to make that intersection safer. I frequently am coming down Harvard at 30+ mph and taking a right up Eastlake to that corner. Maybe I'll go tighten my brakes a little bit more.
Same. I fly down Harvard every morning - and I'm disappointed if I can't aero-tuck the whole way. That's a really fun piece of go-fast.
Unconfirmed rumors (based on bicycle evidence at the scene) that they could have been riding without front brakes. I mean seriously people, this is Seattle and we have hills. This isn't a fucking velodrome.
Glad to hear about the flowers. Still really, really hoping it wasn't one of us... though no matter what, he was one of us... just maybe not a .83er...
Ride safe, kids.
TrikerTrev
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:07 pm
Joined: 23 Oct 2006Posts: 2303Location: FOCO, MOFO!!!
surlykat wrote:
Unconfirmed rumors (based on bicycle evidence at the scene) that they could have been riding without front brakes. I mean seriously people, this is Seattle and we have hills. This isn't a fucking velodrome.
victims of fashion? thats too damn bad, but your absofuckinglutely correct. Fixies are hot-n-sexy but not the brightest mode of transportation in this metro area...but to be fair, i doubt it would a drop of piss of a difference.
surlykat wrote:
Glad to hear about the flowers. Still really, really hoping it wasn't one of us... though no matter what, he was one of us... just maybe not a .83er...
Ride safe, kids.
Ben, Derrick, we NEED to make time to get Ghostbike back online.
This is some sad, sad shit. I don't really care about the excuses...no helmets...right hand passing...no breaks...dark clothes..what ever. Drivers hold the responsibility to BE MINDFUL of what the fuck they're doing! the bigger the vehicle, the more they need to be held responsible for their actions...period.
Fuck...if folks would just slow down for two gawddamn seconds out of their fucking busy fucking day, it would save a life. Regardless if its be a biker, a pedestrian, or another damn car...just slow fucking down for a second...assholes!
gawddammit be CAREFUL boys and girls, i don't want to bury any of you fuckers![/url]
_________________ Insufferable ass, est. 1969
surlykat
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:23 pm
Joined: 05 Jul 2007Posts: 658Location: in the CD
Upon closer inspection of the picture on the NWCN site, it looks like there was indeed a brake on the bike - can't be sure at that resolution though. We really shouldn't be trying to point fingers at all here, except at the community at large to say, hey, this is what can happen to us, we need your help to make this a safer place.
I'd like to see a discussion started (through the proper channels of course) about changing the configuration of the lanes at that junction. It's scary as shit, especially with all the construction they're doing there right now. I think both Eastlake and Harvard could probably do just fine (if not better) with just one lane open to traffic going straight, make a dedicated turn lane, and indicate that with some dashed stripes on the bike lane.
Or something. Anything's better than how it is. Right turns and bike lanes are accidents waiting to happen, everywhere, every day. Good coverage by the P-I; some of the quotes on the earlier articles nearly made me defenestrate my computer.
rlotz
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:49 pm
Joined: 23 Jan 2006Posts: 311Location: Capitol Hill
surlykat wrote:
I'd like to see a discussion started (through the proper channels of course) about changing the configuration of the lanes at that junction. It's scary as shit, especially with all the construction they're doing there right now. I think both Eastlake and Harvard could probably do just fine (if not better) with just one lane open to traffic going straight, make a dedicated turn lane, and indicate that with some dashed stripes on the bike lane.
Or something. Anything's better than how it is. Right turns and bike lanes are accidents waiting to happen, everywhere, every day. Good coverage by the P-I; some of the quotes on the earlier articles nearly made me defenestrate my computer.
Lets get a group together to attend the next SBAB meeting and put this intersection on the agenda. Bring ideas of how to fix it. It might also be worth staging another "Seattle Likes Bikes Event" there.
I watched the King 5 coverage tonight. It was pretty okay. I don't recall any mention of helmets not any suggestion of blame. The one quote from the police was pretty careful, saying they didn't (yet) know if there was a failure to yeild, but did confirm that a north bound vehicle (whether bike or motorized) has right of way over a turning one.
Ride safe everyone.
Foo
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 12:48 am
Joined: 27 Jul 2007Posts: 583
Man, this is just awful. From what I've read, it's a couple of kids (19 years olds) fresh out of CO. I'm sure that there's plenty of worse things that can happen to you - but being pinned under a dump truck tangled up with the corpse of your friend has got to be right up there near the top.
For all of the close calls we all have, this is a reminder that the cars play for keeps. Regardless of who is at fault and who has right of way, there's plenty of things that you can't undo with lawyer or hospital that happen real quick if you let your guard down.
Always, always ride like the cars don't see you - because they usually don't and the real laws - the laws of physics - are firmly on their side.
Bombing down the side of the road is fun and it gets you to your destination a couple minutes faster but never forget that if you're outpacing your stopping power for the unexpected, you're gonna be the one with a busted ride/in physical therapy/rolling in a chair/pushing up daisies with a stepladder and the car is going to have a small dent.
Yes, it's not fair and I wish the drivers would be more careful but that's not going to change overnight. Until then at least consider getting your start-on a couple minutes earlier and getting to the end in one piece. Yes, it's boring and a little square but I want to keep riding with all you goddamn jackasses.
I second the idea of a GhostCycle and SLB ride through here. I've got a frame (retired when, coincidentally, I got hit by a car making a right turn across a bike lane) that would make a good GhostCycle and I think I've even got some white spray paint. Let's do this sooner than later. I might even still have an old rotary tumbler U-lock we can use to fix the bike in place.
I'm around all day Sunday. Cell number is two aught six three five three seven seven six five. Let's make this happen. We can put an informational sign up until the GC site can be updated with the info.
I'm sure that dump truck driver feels pretty shitty right now and lawsuits are forthcoming but that won't bring that rider back. Keep the rubber side down out there and watch out.
Edit: edited because I apparently can't spell Sycle.
Last edited by Foo on Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:03 am; edited 1 time in total
dennyt
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:45 am
rocket mechanicJoined: 02 Aug 2005Posts: 2708
My thoughts exactly, thank you Foo.
surlykat
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:21 am
Joined: 05 Jul 2007Posts: 658Location: in the CD
There's a flower shop right by the scene. If you have a minute, go grab a flower from the Flower Lady and leave it there. Let's not let anyone forget what happened anytime soon.
A huge stencil with road-grade reflective paint that says "A CYCLIST WAS KILLED HERE" should also happen.
I still can't shake the feeling that the bike looks familiar...
Foo
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:40 am
Joined: 27 Jul 2007Posts: 583
It very well could be that you recognized that bike, Kat. They were out of towners so it's unlikely that any of us knew them personally; but chances are that at least one of us tailed those guys through town for several blocks or exchanged nods at a red light or locked up next to them.
The hardcore (bike is primary transport) Seattle biking community is big but not huge. We're the size of a small city of several thousand people. Imagine a Midwest town. I'd be surprised if there weren't at least one .83er that didn't have at least some sort of loose connection with these guys.
There's not a lot we can do for the guy that died except to raise awareness but let's not forget that there's a second kid who got dragged 25 feet under a dump truck and watched his friend die. If anyone knows who he is, it would be nice to send condolences his way.
I've got some big ~3x4 chipboard we can use as stencils. I'm thinking something along the lines of a series of road stencils starting at the accident site and progressing down the road:
"A CYCLIST WAS KILLED HERE"
"HE WAS 19 YEARS OLD"
"DRIVERS - PLEASE LOOK BEFORE YOU TURN"
"BEING 2 MINUTES LATE -"
"- IS NOT WORTH SOMEONE'S LIFE"
Or something like that.
dennyt
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:23 am
rocket mechanicJoined: 02 Aug 2005Posts: 2708
TrikerTrev
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:17 am
Joined: 23 Oct 2006Posts: 2303Location: FOCO, MOFO!!!
i think ive got some industrial road paint left over from langstons 24 hr race...i'm going down that way for a few seconds...i may just paint on the the road.
and maybe thats what we need to do in the interum...mark out our own lane since the city dosnet get it. sure we can continue to "work" with them, but this is a PRIME EXAMPLE of the need to have marked lanes and SIGNS warning drvers of the presents of bikes.
from what ive read, those two were doing nothing we dont all do...ride fast on the right side of the road....WHERE WERE SUPPOSED TO! Channel 13 had a cop at the site saying they were going too fast?!? what the fuck? there is no way they were going "too fast".
foo...i have some shitty rims that can be sued on that old frame of yours to complete the look. i'm here all weekengd. call me if you or ANY ONE ELSE wants to do something with this.
two oh sixsix oh forfor oh too niner
_________________ Insufferable ass, est. 1969
Alastair
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:37 am
Joined: 12 Jan 2006Posts: 475Location: U-district/Ravenna
TrikerTrev wrote:
Channel 13 had a cop at the site saying they were going too fast?!? what the fuck? there is no way they were going "too fast".
In my 3rd vehicle bike collision, the driver told me I was going "too fast". The irony being it was precisely this type of accident. I was going traffic speed (no faster, no slower) and he turned right directly into me (no turn signal). Fortunately for me, the other guy was riding a scooter, and not driving a dump truck. I was in too much shock at the time to yell at the guy, but later, I remember thinking that the accident wasn't caused by me going too fast, it was caused by him not checking behind him.
The physics of cycling dictate that we will never be able to stop as fast as cars, but I think it is safest to ride at traffic speed whenever possible (particularly downhills). Since that accident, I have changed my behavior to ride in the middle of the traffic lane if I can keep pace with traffic, and only move to the right if I am going significantly slower, and there is room between traffic and parked cars.
wakingjonas
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:56 am
Joined: 06 Jul 2007Posts: 62Location: bitter lake
Foo wrote:
They were out of towners so it's unlikely that any of us knew them personally
they might have been new UW students, if they were both friends from colorado who just moved here just recently. :(
Foo
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:38 am
Joined: 27 Jul 2007Posts: 583
Trev:
I didn't make the camping ride since I had to do some bike repairs this morning so I've got the whole weekend open. I'll give you a call later today. I'll take you up on one of those rims. One of the wheels for that bike is still in good condition but the other is completely tacoed from the collision and would be pretty appropriate for this.
Alastair:
Good point. I use the bike lane on Dexter simply because it's heavily traveled and the drivers are usually pretty good about seeing the bikes there. However, if I can pace traffic, I'm usually out in the lane. It's irritating because cars tend to get aggro even when I'm pacing the car in front of me but honestly, that's their problem.
The only caveat I'd add about riding in the lane is to try to stick to the flow of traffic. Weaving around the cars in slow traffic is something pretty much all of us do - but be careful. Speaking as an occasional driver, the cars will not see you and cars are shitty about using their turn signals for lane changes. (of course, to be fair, I'm pretty shitty about using hand signals but I like having both brakes ready to go when I'm in the middle of an intersection)
seth_seth
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:54 am
Joined: 11 May 2007Posts: 92Location: Blard!
yeah this shit is really awful. i work on fairview and i heard the abmulance heading north toward the accident. 45 minutes later i heard about the death. an hour later i was on my bike heading home. believe me, it was a sobering ride home. i took a lot more care than i usually do riding. makes me, again, realize how exposed we are when we're riding around.
no one wants to point fingers here, but i think drivers and cyclists can each take something away from this. drivers need to check their mirror before making right-hand turns, and cyclists should not ride next to cars while moving through an intersection. i think if those two things had happened, that guy would still be alive today.
be safe everyone.
gsbarnes
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:39 am
Joined: 15 Aug 2006Posts: 2666Location: No Fun Town, USA
Long ago, I hit a right-turning truck under similar circumstances. Fortunately for me, we were both going slow, and I was the one that hit him.
My rule since then: never pass a car/truck/etc. on the right that is moving or about to move. And still, on my last trip in Portland, I almost got nailed under the same circumstances. The temptation to pass is almost too great to pass up.
Anyway, a lot of people are out camping, but I third the notion that there should be a Seattle Likes Bikes ride rolling past Eastlake/Fuhrman. In fact, any time a cyclist dies, regardless of who was at fault, we should ride, if nothing else, to mourn the loss of life. In cases where the cyclist was not at fault, to protest as well. In this case, it seems clear to me that the city has built an unsafe intersection where you have two lanes (the bike lane and the right general purpose lane) that are effectively both through and right turn lanes. This is a recipe for the type of accident that just occurred. I wonder if the Bike Master Plan has anything to say about this intersection; my guess is it doesn't, but it should (as should all similar intersections throughout the city).
But it would be respectful to hold off on a ride at least until we know the cyclist names and have a chance to talk to the relatives/friends. And we wouldn't be able to organize a ride immediately, anyway. Let's plan on making a ride plan early next week after the rest of our motley crew has returned from the wilds of King County.
What we can do immediately is stuff that people have already mentioned: build a memorial. Stencil the street. Throw up a Ghostcycle. Don't let people forget.
_________________ I have always thought in the back of my mind: Cheese and Onions
dennyt
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:25 am
rocket mechanicJoined: 02 Aug 2005Posts: 2708
As a former racecar driver, I'm more aware than most drivers, and check my mirrors for bikes passing me on the right every time I make a right turn in the city. BUT, I know that 99% of other drivers out there either aren't aware like that, or just don't care.
Do yourselves a favor and be ready for that truck to turn right any time you're passing traffic in the bike lane. Same goes for oncoming cars turning left - after getting hit by one of those, I'm predisposed to think they're all out to get me.
Until we have curb-protected bike lanes with separate traffic signals, it's up to us to protect ourselves.
Foo
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 3:31 pm
Joined: 27 Jul 2007Posts: 583
Awright, I hit Lowe Depot today and got one more can white spray paint and one can each red and white striping paint. I've got a couple x-acto knives and a couple utility knives for cutting up the chipboard for stencils. I've got a bike and rear wheel, Trev is volunteering a front wheel. I've got an old rotary tumbler U-lock I'll throw in as well.
We'll want to have at least a chain in addition to keep the bike from getting sanitized too fast. If someone can chip that in, that would be great.
From the sounds of it Trev and I *should* be able to meet up late Sunday afternoon. If anyone else wants in on this, give me a call to give me a heads up and meet me sometime tomorrow. My cell number is above and I'm too lazy to type it again. My address is 4817 Greenwood Ave N. I'm at the SW corner of Woodland Park at the SW house on the corner of 49th and Greenwood.
Once our arts and crafts hour is done, I've even got the use of a full sized pickup to haul all the shit down there in one go. For the stenciling, it probably best to have a couple teams laying down the stencils and painting them at a time to minimize the exposure to da fuzz.
Let's make this happen folks. Sunday night.
Last edited by Foo on Sat Sep 08, 2007 3:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
i live blocks away from the intersection in question, just walked down and the flowers are still there, left some roses from my front yard.
havent logged on here in nearly a year - was sincerely hoping it was not one of you all. am glad to hear that your ranks are safe.
my thoughts and prayers are with bryce's family and friends, and with the driver of the truck.
-a
Aaron
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 5:33 pm
Joined: 25 Jul 2005Posts: 4645
The news report indicates that the cyclist was passing on the right in the bike lane.
There needs to be a clairfication of the law regarding bike lanes. If there is no bike lane, then it is indeed illegal for a bike to pass on the right.
I am not sure about with a bike lane. I bet they thought that since they were in the bike lane, they were safe or had the right of way.
Sharrows bring up another concern.
Either way, be careful around intersections! (and bollards!)
The bike with yellow tape under the dump truck has a front brake.
martin
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:02 pm
Joined: 30 Jan 2006Posts: 712
Aaron wrote:
There needs to be a clairfication of the law regarding bike lanes. If there is no bike lane, then it is indeed illegal for a bike to pass on the right.
Actually - it's legal for cyclists to pass on the right even if you're not in a bike lane:
Seattle Municipal Code:
SMC 11.44.080 Overtaking and passing on right.
The operator of a bicycle may overtake and pass a vehicle or a bicycle upon the right only under conditions permitting such movement in safety.
(Ord. 108200 Section 2(11.44.080), 1979.)
Seven
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:04 pm
suddenly quite whiny!Joined: 24 Aug 2007Posts: 345Location: Cap Hill
Foo wrote:
Let's make this happen folks. Sunday night.
I would very much like to be a part of this, I'll try my best to be there, even if I have to bring my girlfriend along. (it's okay, she rides bikes too)
surlykat
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:18 pm
Joined: 05 Jul 2007Posts: 658Location: in the CD
Foo wrote:
Let's make this happen folks. Sunday night.
I am so there. Let me know if you need help with anything... I can paint pretty good.
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