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Would you buy this frame?

Yes.

[ 2 ] 13%

No.

[ 3 ] 20%

I would rather roll around naked, covered in honey, with Henry and Ito.

[ 10 ] 66%

Total Votes : 15

wingedc0w

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:39 pm

Joined: 18 Oct 2005 Posts: 233 Location: SEA || 206

I have seen it on ebay a bunch. If I was just getting started on a bike, period, would you rock a frame such as this. It sounds/looks decent for the money.

Just checking...

wingedc0w

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:51 pm

Joined: 18 Oct 2005 Posts: 233 Location: SEA || 206

Or there is this one, I actually ride this frame. Don't buy the fork, they suck.

Happy Stick Person

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:51 pm

Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 1168 Location: Leschi

Quote:

THIS FRAME ARE HANDE MADE IN CHILE SOUTH AMERICA BY A CRAFMAN HOW BEEN ON THE BUSINESS FOR OVER 40 YEARS, WE HAVE SOLD OVER 40 FRAMES ON THE PAST 3 WEEK, IS A GREAT VALUE FOR THE MONEY.

ummmm yeah...

seth_seth

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:28 pm

Joined: 11 May 2007 Posts: 92 Location: Blard!

i'm going to start duct taping rear dropouts to 80's road frames, and sell them to people because i think i could make a mint.

wingedc0w

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:22 pm

Joined: 18 Oct 2005 Posts: 233 Location: SEA || 206

Fuck it. I ride a Pake, and the fork broke. The bike is a cheap-o taiwanese fabrication. Bike rides okay.

If it was your first track/fixie/ss setup, and you haven't riden a bike in ages, would you know any different?

Alex

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:23 pm

Joined: 18 May 2006 Posts: 3128 Location: Roosevelt

seth_seth wrote:

i'm going to start duct taping rear dropouts to 80's road frames, and sell them to people because i think i could make a mint.

The 80s road frames almost universally come with horizontal dropouts anyway. Those are way superior to "track dropouts" in pretty much any situation, including running a fixed wheel.

Of course the current fixed craze often seems to have little to do with what makes sense and a lot to do with what looks cool.

john

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:44 pm

AAAARRRRRGGGGbllll pppphtt! Joined: 26 Aug 2006 Posts: 725 Location: In the lab.

Alex wrote:

The 80s road frames almost universally come with horizontal dropouts anyway. Those are way superior to "track dropouts" in pretty much any situation, including running a fixed wheel.

How so Alex? I have never run a horizontal road dropout on a fixed gear, just my older road bikes, I'm interested to hear your full exegesis upon the subject...

(But for the record I would not touch any of the frames posted above.)

_________________
In der Not frisst der Teufel Fliegen.

bcbc

wingedc0w

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:59 am

Joined: 18 Oct 2005 Posts: 233 Location: SEA || 206

Fixed gear seems to make sense to have track dropouts or BMX style horizontal drop outs due to the forces at work and the wheel/chain tension issues. Semi Horizontals work fine, but not as good IMO.

My Pake is fine and I have been riding it for two-three years now. It is cheap and heavy, the fork sucks, but it works. It isn't name brand or well known, does that make it a shittier bike (of course tubing/material matters...).

Quote:

This track frame is fashioned in burly, cold drawn, straight-gauge Tange CrMo steel tubes with a geometry similar to our Rush frame.

Builds heavier than the Soma Rush but is cheaper.

Blah..

pete jr

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:14 am

Joined: 13 Dec 2005 Posts: 1930 Location: balls deepx

john wrote:

But for the record I would not touch any of the frames posted above.

you did also say $1500 is the cost of a reasonable bike for a first-time cyclist :)

Happy Stick Person

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:19 am

Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 1168 Location: Leschi

zing!!!

Alex

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:04 am

Joined: 18 May 2006 Posts: 3128 Location: Roosevelt

wingedc0w wrote:

Fixed gear seems to make sense to have track dropouts or BMX style horizontal drop outs due to the forces at work and the wheel/chain tension issues. Semi Horizontals work fine, but not as good IMO.

The forces are much higher on a touring bike with a 2xt granny cog and a large rear cog. A typical road fixed gear of 42/16 has much less torque on the chain than a touring bike running in the lowest gear. The leverage comes down to the riders weight, crank arm length, and the size of the chainring. Horizontal dropouts work fine for touring bikes, so we know that they'll work fine for fixed gear applications (history also shows that they work fine for fixed gear applications).

Track "dropouts" (they aren't dropouts, because the wheel can't dropout) don't inherently do anything to put up with tension better than horizontal dropouts. Yes, the wheel can't slip all the way forward, but it doesn't have to slip that far to end a ride. A slip of a 1/4" will throw the tire into the chainstay and bring the ride to an immediate halt.

Horizontal dropouts are better because they make wheel changes much easier. With track fork ends you have to loosen the QR or wheel nuts, slide the wheel forward (to detension the chain), throw the chain over to the axle, slide the wheel back and out of the fork end. With a horizontal dropout you just loosen the QR or wheel nuts and slide the wheel forward, it will drop out. Track fork ends also make life with full fenders much more difficult (on most bikes you need cut the fender down so far as to be ineffective, or you need to remove the fender stays from the dropouts to remove the rear wheel).

The only advantage to track fork ends is the ability to run a chain tug. They may be useful in singlespeed mountain biking and BMX where the gearing is much lower (so the chain torque is a lot higher), but they aren't beneficial or necessary on road fixed gears. A good quality QR or high quality track nuts will handle any load that you put on the drivetrain.

john

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:07 am

AAAARRRRRGGGGbllll pppphtt! Joined: 26 Aug 2006 Posts: 725 Location: In the lab.

pete jr wrote:

you did also say $1500 is the cost of a reasonable bike for a first-time cyclist :)

yup. But for practical reasons within the current bike paradigm, I would skimp as low as $800 for a bike like a volpe for a new cyclist, or less for something assembled from recycled parts. I still think any dedicated cyclist who knows what they want shouldn't hesitate spend the time and money to have a handmade frame built to their desires. I will concede that this degree of purchase should perhaps wait until the rider knows how they want the frame to behave. However, in my opinion what is more important than the cost is the principle that bike frames should be handmade.

My big problem/point is that the majority of people, even militant cyclists, will sit there and go cheap on a bike, but "bite the bullet" and dump a couple grand or more, for a car in a time that any rational person recognizes the negative effect the automotive industry has upon human society and the individual.

So yeah... a big WTF? to the current paradigm.

My thoughts are that:

A. Your bike budget should be double or triple your car budget provided you even choose to have a car.

B. You should support the bike economy and the craftsmen by purchasing american handmade bikes, I hate things built by robots and I will live cheaper so I can give my money to a human craftsman instead of a corporation that uses robots for jobs that should be run by humans.

Frame building should be a respectable profession that provides a dependable living wage. People like David Wilson should be living comfortable and looking at buying a house.

It's just my opinion, but I still see the logic in it. I am not sure on a bike forum how people could scoff at trying to direct money in our economy toweards people who wish to be bicycle craftsman. It seems like it should be our goal (as far as having goals as consumers) to financially support these people.

(aside: Alex, thanks for your points. I personally still prefer a track dropout, but I can see your logic.)

Last edited by john on Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:15 am; edited 1 time in total
_________________
In der Not frisst der Teufel Fliegen.

bcbc

jeff

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:12 am

SOC pussy Joined: 05 May 2006 Posts: 4501

If $800 is skimping then I am officially WAY below the poverty level.

john

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:16 am

AAAARRRRRGGGGbllll pppphtt! Joined: 26 Aug 2006 Posts: 725 Location: In the lab.

jeff wrote:

If $800 is skimping then I am officially WAY below the poverty level.

I have known people below the poverty level that spend $800 on a TV.

The general collective of people on this forum, for the most part, despite how they dress and the social culture they try to emulate... are fairly well to do.

Yeah, a starving family gets a completely different set of recommendations.... but that person is not cruising the internet wasting their time on a stupid bike forum.

_________________
In der Not frisst der Teufel Fliegen.

bcbc

Alex

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:32 am

Joined: 18 May 2006 Posts: 3128 Location: Roosevelt

john wrote:

(aside: Alex, thanks for your points. I personally still prefer a track dropout, but I can see your logic.)

Why?

john

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:56 am

AAAARRRRRGGGGbllll pppphtt! Joined: 26 Aug 2006 Posts: 725 Location: In the lab.

Alex wrote:

john wrote:

(aside: Alex, thanks for your points. I personally still prefer a track dropout, but I can see your logic.)

Why?

Oh ERK! No logical reason, my fixed is not a bike where practicality takes precedent. Sorry if it sounded like I had reasons, it's just asthetics.

I do like your observation of tourques from touring bikes, I hadn't thought of that. Could there be different directional vectors on the force application? I'm in no way an engineer, but I can see how a direct drive inline, could amplify some of the force vectors of the tourque. Just wondering why they still use them, if it is just convention? With BMX, I would guess it is for landing strength.

_________________
In der Not frisst der Teufel Fliegen.

bcbc

SeditiousCanary

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:11 am

sorry, can't make it! Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 2315 Location: Fremont Troll

john wrote:

Could there be different directional vectors on the force application? I'm in no way an engineer, but I can see how a direct drive inline, could amplify some of the force vectors of the tourque. Just wondering why they still use them, if it is just convention? With BMX, I would guess it is for landing strength.

It's the reasoning behind Klein using rear facing dropouts on their bikes for years. I prefer it too from my years as a BMX jerk.

the dreaded ben

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:47 am

Grumpy Greeb Joined: 20 Aug 2005 Posts: 5329 Location: flavor country

SeditiousCanary wrote:

It's the reasoning behind Klein using rear facing dropouts on their bikes for years. I prefer it too from my years as a BMX jerk.

i can vouche for this as well. my klein was a ridiculous accelerator.

Alex

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:39 am

Joined: 18 May 2006 Posts: 3128 Location: Roosevelt

john wrote:

I do like your observation of tourques from touring bikes, I hadn't thought of that. Could there be different directional vectors on the force application? I'm in no way an engineer, but I can see how a direct drive inline, could amplify some of the force vectors of the tourque.

They are inline on a touring bike in the lowest gears (the chainline of using the granny and the lowest few cogs is pretty good). There isn't any derailleur in the way on the tensioned side of the chain.

Klein bikes are stiff because they have massively oversized chainstays. It has nothing to do with their sort of rear facing dropouts.

lantius

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:48 am

1337 Joined: 22 Jul 2005 Posts: 6705 Location: right over

john wrote:

B. You should support the bike economy and the craftsmen by purchasing american handmade bikes, I hate things built by robots and I will live cheaper so I can give my money to a human craftsman instead of a corporation that uses robots for jobs that should be run by humans.

i have been trying to find a handmade chain and some hand-molded-and-siped tires for a while now. i'm not sure if anybody still make hand-woven brake cables though.

it turns out that robots do a fine job with assembling a great many things, freeing people up to use their creative energies for design rather than the drudgery of repetitive assembly. i'm glad the surly guys can get awesome frames made to their specifications and sell them for around $400 retail.

now for a topical segue, i have been curious about why so many surly bikes use the track ends rather than horizontal drops. is it possible to do horizontal drops with disc brakes?

the dreaded ben

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:54 pm

Grumpy Greeb Joined: 20 Aug 2005 Posts: 5329 Location: flavor country

Alex wrote:

Klein bikes are stiff because they have massively oversized chainstays. It has nothing to do with their sort of rear facing dropouts.

actually, kleins stiff rear end is the culmination of a number of facts, least of which is not the rear facing dropouts, and the most of which is not the chainstay's oversize nature.

nick

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:05 pm

Joined: 04 Sep 2005 Posts: 99 Location: Stockholm, Sverige

Alex wrote:

Track fork ends also make life with full fenders much more difficult (on most bikes you need cut the fender down so far as to be ineffective, or you need to remove the fender stays from the dropouts to remove the rear wheel).

I've got an IRO Rob Roy that has track ends. I can't recall ever having any problems getting wheels on or off due to the presence of fenders. That frame has fairly high clearance for fenders/big tires though, so that certainly helps the situation.

Alex

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:20 pm

Joined: 18 May 2006 Posts: 3128 Location: Roosevelt

lantius wrote:

it turns out that robots do a fine job with assembling a great many things, freeing people up to use their creative energies for design rather than the drudgery of repetitive assembly. i'm glad the surly guys can get awesome frames made to their specifications and sell them for around $400 retail.

That has little to do with robots and a lot to do with lower costs of labor in China and Taiwan.

lantius wrote:

now for a topical segue, i have been curious about why so many surly bikes use the track ends rather than horizontal drops. is it possible to do horizontal drops with disc brakes?

The same trick used by the track ends (slotted disk mounts) should work for horizontal dropouts. Sliding dropouts would make more sense.

Alex

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:22 pm

Joined: 18 May 2006 Posts: 3128 Location: Roosevelt

the dreaded ben wrote:

Alex wrote:

Klein bikes are stiff because they have massively oversized chainstays. It has nothing to do with their sort of rear facing dropouts.

actually, kleins stiff rear end is the culmination of a number of facts, least of which is not the rear facing dropouts, and the most of which is not the chainstay's oversize nature.

How do their rear facing dropouts make anything stiffer? Klein's marketting deparment doesn't even claim this (they claim that they prevent wheel slip -- which is true).

I had a Klein for about 5 years, but it predated the rear facing dropouts.

alex

joby

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:39 pm

goes to eleven Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 3899 Location: The Cloud

john wrote:

Americans annoy me. Also, Robots are cool.

the dreaded ben

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:59 pm

Grumpy Greeb Joined: 20 Aug 2005 Posts: 5329 Location: flavor country

Alex wrote:

well, about 4 years ago this very topic was explained to me in great detail to me by one very nerdy gary klein.
but you never know a mit phd educated, engineer that has dedicated his life to frame design could be wrong.

SKETCHY

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:51 pm

Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 336 Location: Everywhere

some of you should GOOGLE KLIEN BICYCLE DROPOUT and actually learn something, BEN is the only person that is right. I too have also met Gary Klien at interbike a few years ago and talked about this design.

_________________
Pissing the world off since 1973.

laura

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:00 pm

Joined: 22 Jun 2007 Posts: 1050 Location: wherever the dance party is

SKETCHY wrote:

some of you should GOOGLE KLIEN BICYCLE DROPOUT and actually learn something

Totally unrelated, but I just want to note that under "location" SKETCHY has chosen "everywhere", making him omnipresent. Just imagine that for a moment. :)

SKETCHY

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:28 pm

Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 336 Location: Everywhere

omnipresent ?

_________________
Pissing the world off since 1973.

derrickito

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:32 pm

now with 50 percent more EVIL Joined: 22 Jul 2005 Posts: 10566

do you mean omnipotent?
it's pretty close in spelling to impotent, which could also be used

Joe

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:41 pm

Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 430

derrickito wrote:

do you mean omnipotent?
it's pretty close in spelling to impotent, which could also be used

If Sketchy were omnipotent it means he could anything anywhere at any time, which...sweet jesus--the horror!!

Omnipresent is bad enough, except when I think about pooping. Then it means I'm likely pooping on Sketchy's face...which come to think of it, he might enj...sweet jesus--the horror!!

laura

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:24 pm

Joined: 22 Jun 2007 Posts: 1050 Location: wherever the dance party is

derrickito wrote:

do you mean omnipotent?
it's pretty close in spelling to impotent, which could also be used

Well, no. Seeing as how you recently exalted yourself as overload on the Enchantments Hike thread, you can be omnipotent or "having very great or unlimited authority of power." Do check in with Ben and Lee though to see if that's ok.

Since Sketchy is, by his own definition, everywhere, he gets to be "present everywhere at the same time" or omnipresent.

Know other good omni-words out there? Please PM me.

Not even going to touch impotent.

And that has been your friendly language update.

Foo

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:55 pm

Joined: 27 Jul 2007 Posts: 583

laura wrote:

Seeing as how you recently exalted yourself as overload

So... many... pants pooping jokes... falling over... each other... to get... out... of my... brain...

Alex

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:51 am

Joined: 18 May 2006 Posts: 3128 Location: Roosevelt

SKETCHY wrote:

I've also met Gary Klein a couple of times, he used to go to the Seattle Bike Expo before selling his company to Trek. He is a reasonably nice guy and clearly has a lot of experience and education as a mechanical engineer. No one is debating that.

Google doesn't explain how this design makes the rear triangle of the frame stiffer. If you guys learned from Gary then share the details, otherwise I'll just chalk it up to fuzzy memories (maybe helped by some of the free beer at Interbike).

Google primarily finds the same advertising copy, a many step instruction manual showing you how to remove the rear wheel with these dropouts (yeah, that's easy), people complaining about how annoying the dropout is, and the patent. None of this talks about how it makes the bike stiffer.

SeditiousCanary

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:53 am

sorry, can't make it! Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 2315 Location: Fremont Troll

SKETCHY wrote:

Eh, I'm right too as I said it before Ben did. Freaking Johnny-come-lately...

the dreaded ben

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:48 am

Grumpy Greeb Joined: 20 Aug 2005 Posts: 5329 Location: flavor country

to complicated to explain on the internet, as it requires drawing diagrams, see me on a ride.

suffice it to say the most important factor in klein acceleration is the fucking bizarre shaping of the chainstay.

Remington

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:51 am

Joined: 23 Jan 2006 Posts: 457 Location: Remington Country

This thread in one post, to save others time:

HSP wrote:

wingedc0w wrote:

I'm going to buy this stupid frame

Don't

alex wrote:

john wrote:

alex wrote:

"Track dropouts" suck, but hipsters don't care.

Oh yeah? Why is that?

and wingedc0w wrote:

Me and my fixed gear are stronger than you and your bike!

No you aren't, and I'm smarter than you are, so I can prove it. See?

john wrote:

I don't care, I'm all about asthetics[sic].

Nygard wrote:

BtAH wrote:

Actually, they are better.

Yeah.

alex wrote:

You guys are stupid.

sketchy wrote:

BtAH wrote:

Hey, I've talked to an engineer before. I understand forces; I design furniture.

I'm going to root for Ben. Just fucking google it.

Random off-topic bullshit that doesn't contribute to the fight in progress and clearly shows that no one in this group is omniscient...

alex wrote:

You guys are drunks, and Google doesn't support your argument.

BtAH wrote:

I blame the internet. I'm still right. Let me explain it in person at the bar tonight

Lame post that reveals how bored Remington is.

SeditiousCanary

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:09 am

sorry, can't make it! Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 2315 Location: Fremont Troll

Alex wrote:

Klein's marketting deparment doesn't even claim this

Back when I worked at a Klein shop, it was the Klein rep that brought it up to me and explained it. I'll draw a diagram on tonights ride.

n_claw

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:26 am

Joined: 02 Jul 2007 Posts: 517 Location: the only hill: Beacon

watching you guys debate rear dropouts is like watching a circle-jerk in the back room at the Eagle.

<3, N*

derrickito

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:34 am

now with 50 percent more EVIL Joined: 22 Jul 2005 Posts: 10566

how often do you go to the eagle?

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