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chad
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:45 am Reply with quote
Joined: 02 Oct 2007 Posts: 20 Location: downtown

46.61.050
Failure to obey traffic control device-Bicycle

I didn't put my foot down at that sign on BGT near Uvillage that SPD is watching with binoculars from the bushes.

Has anyone got one of these bullshit tickets and successfully fought it?
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Seven
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:50 am Reply with quote
suddenly quite whiny! Joined: 24 Aug 2007 Posts: 345 Location: Cap Hill

chad wrote:
46.61.050
Failure to obey traffic control device-Bicycle

I didn't put my foot down at that sign on BGT near Uvillage that SPD is watching with binoculars from the bushes.

Has anyone got one of these bullshit tickets and successfully fought it?


But did you stop? Do you need me to roll into the courtroom and demonstrate how you can stop on a bicycle without putting your foot down? That should shut 'em up.
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chad
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:55 am Reply with quote
Joined: 02 Oct 2007 Posts: 20 Location: downtown

I did the I am slowing down so I don't get hit, look both ways no cars in sight kinda stop.

I seriously doubt officer A.C. Stewart's ability to differentiate types of stopping.
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bobhall
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:05 am Reply with quote
Joined: 28 Jul 2006 Posts: 460

My suggestion: wipe your ass with the ticket and mail it back to them.
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Seven
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:06 am Reply with quote
suddenly quite whiny! Joined: 24 Aug 2007 Posts: 345 Location: Cap Hill

chad wrote:
I did the I am slowing down so I don't get hit, look both ways no cars in sight kinda stop.

I seriously doubt officer A.C. Stewart's ability to differentiate types of stopping.


You can totally fight that, I would think. It seems like his only argument would be that you didn't put your foot down, and I think we all know that's ridiculous.
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Rogelio
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:07 am Reply with quote
Joined: 31 Jul 2007 Posts: 3092 Location: Pos, aya, por la Corona-Alta-Madera y que no.

Seven wrote:
chad wrote:
I did the I am slowing down so I don't get hit, look both ways no cars in sight kinda stop.

I seriously doubt officer A.C. Stewart's ability to differentiate types of stopping.


You can totally fight that, I would think. It seems like his only argument would be that you didn't put your foot down, and I think we all know that's ridiculous.


You could totally fight it, but then everyone would know where you live.

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langston
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:08 am Reply with quote
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 5547 Location: Columbia City

eh, that's an easy one to mitigate your way out of if you have a fairly clean record.

Check the "middle" option and when you meeting the magistrate, explain the circumstances and that you were in full control and operating safely and they'll probably throw it out. Worked for me, running red lights downtown.
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gsbarnes
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:13 am Reply with quote
Joined: 15 Aug 2006 Posts: 2666 Location: No Fun Town, USA

See this thread on Cascade's forums about a similar situation in Mercer Island. Search for Joshua Putnam, who got a clarification from the MI city attorney that RCW does not require a foot down, but rather 'a complete cessation of movement'.

http://www.cascade.org/Community/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=13&threadid=6733


If the officer says you didn't stop because you didn't put a foot down, I'd contest, since that isn't the law.

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Seven
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:22 am Reply with quote
suddenly quite whiny! Joined: 24 Aug 2007 Posts: 345 Location: Cap Hill

and we should totally get a bunch of guys to trackstand right outside the window of the courtroom the whole time.
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chad
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:45 am Reply with quote
Joined: 02 Oct 2007 Posts: 20 Location: downtown

bobhall wrote:
My suggestion: wipe your ass with the ticket and mail it back to them.


heh, I clearly marked the middle selection sir.
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henry
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:46 am Reply with quote
somewhat piggish Joined: 05 Aug 2005 Posts: 5415 Location: on porch with shotgun

Sounds to me like you didn't stop at a stop sign.

That's fine, i do it all the time, but you know what a stop sign means. You chose to ignore it. Pay the $100 and go on with your life.

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vaticdart
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:58 am Reply with quote
Joined: 02 Aug 2007 Posts: 649 Location: Inside a Bell

henry wrote:
Sounds to me like you didn't stop at a stop sign.

That's fine, i do it all the time, but you know what a stop sign means. You chose to ignore it. Pay the $100 and go on with your life.


Henry beat me to it, so I'm just going to have to second him on this.

If you can get out of it, great, but you got a ticket for breaking a law, and that's not exactly a travesty.

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derrickito
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:06 am Reply with quote
now with 50 percent more EVIL Joined: 22 Jul 2005 Posts: 10566

STOPPING IS HAAAAARD!
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joeball
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:09 am Reply with quote
Joined: 24 Jul 2005 Posts: 6037 Location: Ether

derrickito wrote:
STOPPING IS HAAAAARD!


Paying when you don't stop is HARDDDDDRRRRRR
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chad
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:16 am Reply with quote
Joined: 02 Oct 2007 Posts: 20 Location: downtown

Thanks guys.
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lantius
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:23 am Reply with quote
1337 Joined: 22 Jul 2005 Posts: 6705 Location: right over

henry wrote:
Sounds to me like you didn't stop at a stop sign.

That's fine, i do it all the time, but you know what a stop sign means. You chose to ignore it. Pay the $100 and go on with your life.


it's different if you get a ticket for ignoring a "trail closed" sign though.
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henry
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:27 am Reply with quote
somewhat piggish Joined: 05 Aug 2005 Posts: 5415 Location: on porch with shotgun

lantius wrote:
henry wrote:
Sounds to me like you didn't stop at a stop sign.

That's fine, i do it all the time, but you know what a stop sign means. You chose to ignore it. Pay the $100 and go on with your life.


it's different if you get a ticket for ignoring a "trail closed" sign though.


You speak truth lee, i'm glad we see eye to eye.

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chad
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:34 am Reply with quote
Joined: 02 Oct 2007 Posts: 20 Location: downtown

That's a travesty.
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mork the delayer
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:42 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 06 Apr 2006 Posts: 548 Location: Providence, RI

gsbarnes wrote:
RCW does not require a foot down, but rather 'a complete cessation of movement'.

http://www.cascade.org/Community/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=13&threadid=6733


If the officer says you didn't stop because you didn't put a foot down, I'd contest, since that isn't the law.


Hm. Maybe we can get some physicists to testify that "complete cessation of movement" is impossible.

Do they want us to supercool our bicycles to 0 K at all stop signs or what? I guess that would be a 'best effort' attempt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_zero

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gsbarnes
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:50 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 15 Aug 2006 Posts: 2666 Location: No Fun Town, USA

mork the delayer wrote:
gsbarnes wrote:
RCW does not require a foot down, but rather 'a complete cessation of movement'.

http://www.cascade.org/Community/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=13&threadid=6733


If the officer says you didn't stop because you didn't put a foot down, I'd contest, since that isn't the law.


Hm. Maybe we can get some physicists to testify that "complete cessation of movement" is impossible.

Do they want us to supercool our bicycles to 0 K at all stop signs or what? I guess that would be a 'best effort' attempt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_zero


As Einstein showed, any frame of reference is valid. From the frame of reference of your bicycle, you aren't moving, the pavement and the world around you is moving. Ergo, given the proper frame of reference, you are always stopped.

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MyNameIsJeff
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:02 pm Reply with quote
BOOSH! Joined: 17 Jul 2007 Posts: 2042 Location: Nearest bar.

What the fuck were you thinking?
You are supposed to stop, completely dismount, check that it is clear, then you can continue on.

If you can't do that then maybe you shouldn't be riding a bike with .83. Or at all.



Criminal.

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rob
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:10 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 28 Jul 2007 Posts: 1315 Location: Columbia City

gsbarnes wrote:
mork the delayer wrote:
gsbarnes wrote:
RCW does not require a foot down, but rather 'a complete cessation of movement'.

http://www.cascade.org/Community/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=13&threadid=6733


If the officer says you didn't stop because you didn't put a foot down, I'd contest, since that isn't the law.


Hm. Maybe we can get some physicists to testify that "complete cessation of movement" is impossible.

Do they want us to supercool our bicycles to 0 K at all stop signs or what? I guess that would be a 'best effort' attempt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_zero


As Einstein showed, any frame of reference is valid. From the frame of reference of your bicycle, you aren't moving, the pavement and the world around you is moving. Ergo, given the proper frame of reference, you are always stopped.


"stopping" can be shown thusly:

if you roll to a stop and track stand backwards slightly, your velocity has changed sign from positive to negative. since your velocity is a continuous variable the intermediate value theorem sez it had to be zero at some point. qed, bitches.

there are of course all sorts of catches, but all those apply to cars as well.
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Eric_s
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:36 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Posts: 1691 Location: the dirty south

I wonder if you'd get a ticket for leaping off, cross style, shoulder your bike as you run across the crosswalk, and on the other side leap back on and pedal off.

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gsbarnes
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:40 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 15 Aug 2006 Posts: 2666 Location: No Fun Town, USA

Eric_s wrote:
I wonder if you'd get a ticket for leaping off, cross style, shoulder your bike as you run across the crosswalk, and on the other side leap back on and pedal off.


See, that's a good point. Bikes in crosswalks get all the privileges of pedestrians. Pedestrians don't have to stop at stop signs.

I really don't know what a stop sign positioned before a crosswalk means if you're on a bike.

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DOUG.
Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:45 am Reply with quote
Joined: 29 Jan 2007 Posts: 117 Location: Wallingford

Ditto those last two posts. I've run that sign many times when there were pedestrians in the crosswalk. Cars are, of course, required by law to stop for them. The notion that I would stop for the cars, who were stopped for the peds, is ridiculous. Those signs are simply absurd. Fight the ticket!!!
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Remington
Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:14 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 23 Jan 2006 Posts: 457 Location: Remington Country

gsbarnes wrote:
See, that's a good point. Bikes in crosswalks get all the privileges of pedestrians. Pedestrians don't have to stop at stop signs.

I really don't know what a stop sign positioned before a crosswalk means if you're on a bike.
Haven't people been killed, or at least seriously hurt by cars at some of those road/trail intersections? The stop sign is there for a reason, even if you only to take as it warning to pay attention. Bikes are faster than peds, so cars have less time to notice them coming out of the bushes on the trail. Sometimes when I drive across the BGT onto the UW campus, I almost forget it is there.

I'm with Henry on this one. Sure, maybe bikes Can safely blow past stop signs/lights if it's clear. Hell, if it's Really clear, cars could too. But how the hell would you like the law to read? The simplest way to enforce traffic laws is to have everyone follow the same simple rules. Stop at stop signs, stop at red lights, etc. Yellow lights, if I remember correctly require people to "stop if it is safe to do so," leaving it to people's subjective judgment of "safe", and you know how that works with some drivers... and it wouldn't be much better with some cyclists either.

Of course, foot down definition of a stop Is rather lame.
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gsbarnes
Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:55 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 15 Aug 2006 Posts: 2666 Location: No Fun Town, USA

Remington wrote:
gsbarnes wrote:
See, that's a good point. Bikes in crosswalks get all the privileges of pedestrians. Pedestrians don't have to stop at stop signs.

I really don't know what a stop sign positioned before a crosswalk means if you're on a bike.
Haven't people been killed, or at least seriously hurt by cars at some of those road/trail intersections? The stop sign is there for a reason, even if you only to take as it warning to pay attention. Bikes are faster than peds, so cars have less time to notice them coming out of the bushes on the trail. Sometimes when I drive across the BGT onto the UW campus, I almost forget it is there.

I'm with Henry on this one. Sure, maybe bikes Can safely blow past stop signs/lights if it's clear. Hell, if it's Really clear, cars could too. But how the hell would you like the law to read? The simplest way to enforce traffic laws is to have everyone follow the same simple rules. Stop at stop signs, stop at red lights, etc. Yellow lights, if I remember correctly require people to "stop if it is safe to do so," leaving it to people's subjective judgment of "safe", and you know how that works with some drivers... and it wouldn't be much better with some cyclists either.

Of course, foot down definition of a stop Is rather lame.


Bike or ped, the law is you are not allowed to enter a crosswalk if a vehicle would not have time to stop for you.

I'm aware of what the law is in most cases. But a stop sign before a crosswalk makes no sense to me. If you have a stop sign, and cross traffic does not, you must yield to cross traffic. Does that mean bikes and pedestrians must yield to cross traffic at trail crossings with stop signs? I'm pretty sure not. The stop sign contradicts the crosswalk, which says cross traffic must yield (subject to the 'reaction time' caveat I mentioned above). I don't know what it means, legally.

If they want people to watch out, then maybe they should have a yellow sign. But they should not use an existing traffic control that already has a specific, different meaning.

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Matthew
Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:35 pm Reply with quote
rookie Joined: 20 Aug 2007 Posts: 1173 Location: Sur le nord-ouest des États-Unis, pret de la frontier Québécois

Eric_s wrote:
I wonder if you'd get a ticket for leaping off, cross style, shoulder your bike as you run across the crosswalk, and on the other side leap back on and pedal off.


Yes.

Also, yes, I am speaking from experience here. I did this in DC near The Mall, where all bicycles must come to a complete stop and walk through the anti-car bomb concrete barriers.

Good news: National Park Service rarely defends contested tickets in court since they don't have the resources.
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kav
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:45 am Reply with quote
Joined: 15 Oct 2007 Posts: 43 Location: Eastlake

Matthew wrote:
Eric_s wrote:
I wonder if you'd get a ticket for leaping off, cross style, shoulder your bike as you run across the crosswalk, and on the other side leap back on and pedal off.


Yes.

Also, yes, I am speaking from experience here. I did this in DC near The Mall, where all bicycles must come to a complete stop and walk through the anti-car bomb concrete barriers.

Good news: National Park Service rarely defends contested tickets in court since they don't have the resources.


When I tried to ride through those they usually just stood in front of me and told me if I didn't stop they'd be forced to shoot me. Guess they figured out how to avoid wasting time in court.
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