"Motorists help pay for roads with gas taxes, tolls and license tabs. Boaters subsidize maritime programs with vessel registration and boat launch fees.
Maybe bicyclists, too, should pitch in for the costs of their trails and lanes. "
[/bike hate]
(slaps forehead)... those retards...
snyd3282
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:56 am
could suck the fun out of a blowjobJoined: 23 Jul 2007Posts: 588Location: Ballard / Fremont
I've really got to stop reading these things.
My lengthy response on the talkback/soundoff whatever:
In most cities, bicycle licensing is a way to track the owner of the bicycle to return it in the case of theft.
No major city in the world has ever pretended to license cyclists for taxing or safety/skill reasons.
Consider a few cases:
The child. My friend's 3 year old has a bicycle. Do we prevent her from riding because she hasn't achieved a certain skill level? Do we want to issue a ticket if she is riding on the burke gilman trail with her father? Do we want to tax $10/year on that $45 bicycle?
The home gym. Many people own bicycle trainers, contraptions that let them turn a road bike into a stationary bike. A friend of mine has failing eyesight and doesn't feel safe on the roads. If he stops riding outdoors and only rides in his garage, should we still require him to license or register his bicycle?
The bicycle gathering cobwebs. A majority, possibly as much as 80%, of bicycles are purchased, ridden a few dozen miles, hung up in the garage and long forgotten. Shall we require licenses and registration for idle cycles?
Enforcement. How do you distinguish between the once a year recreational rider, the daily commuter, the idle cycle, the child, and the un-used bicycle? Do we "tax" them all?
The story mentioned law breakers. Here's the thing that gets me, the speed limits everywhere in Seattle are ignored and religiously exceeded by most drivers. It is hard to drive only the speed limit when the mass of traffic is going 15 miles per hour faster.
If the police enforced the speed limit laws that nearly everyone breaks on a regular basis, traffic would move slowly enough that you wouldn't be delayed by cyclists. It is your illegal activities that causes much of your frustration with cyclists and is the greatest threat to their safety and it has nothing to do with changing the laws as they pertain to cyclists.
I do support one change to licensing. When was the last time you took a driving test? When you moved to Washington? When you were a teenager? Unlike some other states, Washington has NEVER had a re-testing requirement. Laws have changed and we don't check to see if drivers are educated or even safe to drive.
If you want to pursue a change in licensing, please start by suggesting that we require all drivers to pass a drivers test at least once a decade.
TrikerTrev
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 8:32 am
Joined: 23 Oct 2006Posts: 2303Location: FOCO, MOFO!!!
I'll tell ya what, if a 5 dollar sticker is what it take to get this town to accept the fact that we can ride on the road, and that maybe the police would give a squirt of pee over stolen bikes, then i might be okay with this.
But really, who the fuck thinks this will do anything? If Nickols already has what, 240 mil from the BMP (and still cant put up some GODAMN SIGNS), what is his goal here? Looks an aweful lot like pandering to me.
Am i going to have to get my 6 yo "licensed"? when I buy a used bike are we going to have to go thru a Title change?
This town has way bigger issues to deal with other than if 1% of the local populace rides a damn bike.
And anyways, it's not like i'd be the first in line to get registered, hell, i still don't have a valid drivers licence!
snyd3282
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:03 am
could suck the fun out of a blowjobJoined: 23 Jul 2007Posts: 588Location: Ballard / Fremont
My suspicion is that most of the people yelling about licensing and taxing really want the police to give tickets (with probably the eventual threat of taking the bike away or arresting people) for running red lights and speeding down the downtown sidewalks on their bikes.
...and with about 2 seconds of critical thinking it is easy to see that licensing won't do anything for that problem.
john
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:08 am
AAAARRRRRGGGGbllll pppphtt!Joined: 26 Aug 2006Posts: 725Location: In the lab.
TrikerTrev wrote:
And anyways, it's not like i'd be the first in line to get registered, hell, i still don't have a valid drivers licence!
Yup... and hence Trevor... you won't have a valid bike license three months after you get one...
I'm more concerned about losing the license... like... what will the penalty be for riding a bike with suspended biking license?
Don't you think that there will be CUI's?
Think about all the overhead... really for the state as well... as the court cases become criminal infractions when you have the build up of cycling citations.
I can live with the lack of police protection if that is how I have to pay for less imperial entanglements.
_________________ In der Not frisst der Teufel Fliegen.
Joined: 23 Oct 2006Posts: 2303Location: FOCO, MOFO!!!
...and they STILL don't get it right!
DOUG.
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:27 pm
Joined: 29 Jan 2007Posts: 117Location: Wallingford
This is such a non-story. Even Nickels' spokesperson says that bike registration is "not something that we would be inclined to pursue" and that it's "not really clear what benefit it would have and it's fraught with a lot of complications."
The only reason this ran on Wednesday's front page above-the-fold is because no one at the P-I wanted to work on Christmas Day and this "story" was already in the can!
wingedc0w
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:04 pm
Joined: 18 Oct 2005Posts: 233Location: SEA || 206
I think it's really a pro bike article.
MyNameIsJeff
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:15 pm
BOOSH!Joined: 17 Jul 2007Posts: 2042Location: Nearest bar.
I just pictured the angry mob with torches and pitch-forks stopping in their tracks and looking around aimlessly.
john
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:17 pm
AAAARRRRRGGGGbllll pppphtt!Joined: 26 Aug 2006Posts: 725Location: In the lab.
DOUG. wrote:
This is such a non-story. Even Nickels' spokesperson says that bike registration is "not something that we would be inclined to pursue"
Does this make cyclists as cool as Xmen?!
_________________ In der Not frisst der Teufel Fliegen.
Joined: 23 Oct 2006Posts: 2303Location: FOCO, MOFO!!!
thats what makes this soooo damn funny
it IS a non-story, and entirely PRO bike, yet the PI (and they really need to rethink the "I" word there) truly mislabeled the title, thus doing more harm than good.
if it said "register bikes" instead of "licensing cyclists", it would garner an entire different response...and certainly not be front page worthy!
Post Intelligencer? yeah...riiiiight!
wingedc0w
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:10 pm
Joined: 18 Oct 2005Posts: 233Location: SEA || 206
I think the title works well. It gets the angry to read it, then realize, as it is said point blank in the conclusion of the article, that licensing or registering bicycles is pointless. It's a moot point.
Shit, make me license my bicycle. I won't, I'll ride without one. How many people who drive don't have proper registration, license, or insurance? Are they going to expand enforcement to cyclists, really?!
It's just funny cause someone wanted the holiday off, so they put this front page.
TrikerTrev
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:20 pm
Joined: 23 Oct 2006Posts: 2303Location: FOCO, MOFO!!!
wingedc0w wrote:
How many people who drive don't have proper registration, license, or insurance? !
uh...i resemble that remark
snyd3282
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:33 pm
could suck the fun out of a blowjobJoined: 23 Jul 2007Posts: 588Location: Ballard / Fremont
TrikerTrev wrote:
wingedc0w wrote:
How many people who drive don't have proper registration, license, or insurance? !
uh...i resemble that remark
I think I heard Josh Putnam once say that either 30% or 40% of drivers don't have insurance.
derrickito
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:39 pm
now with 50 percent more EVILJoined: 22 Jul 2005Posts: 10566
my tabs expired in november. i got pulled over the other day for driving in the carpool lane. cop didnt care about the tabs. hell, he didnt even ask for proof of insurance. (i do have insurance)
terrydean
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:43 pm
rocker boiJoined: 24 Jul 2005Posts: 1535Location: santa fe, i think
this is retarded.
lantius
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:47 pm
1337Joined: 22 Jul 2005Posts: 6705Location: right over
derrickito wrote:
my tabs expired in november. i got pulled over the other day for driving in the carpool lane. cop didnt care about the tabs. hell, he didnt even ask for proof of insurance. (i do have insurance)
what happened to martha the mannequin, your driving buddy?
derrickito
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:48 pm
now with 50 percent more EVILJoined: 22 Jul 2005Posts: 10566
it was the 520 3 person carpool lane. i was busting through it with 2 people in the dark. cops are usually never watching in the winter when the darkness comes early. one carpool ticket in 7 years of breaking that law, that's not a bad average.
lantius
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:50 pm
1337Joined: 22 Jul 2005Posts: 6705Location: right over
Joined: 23 Oct 2006Posts: 2303Location: FOCO, MOFO!!!
Dean
id post something NWA just for you, but i'm behind the mans firewall. How about this...
DJStroky
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:55 pm
Joined: 25 May 2007Posts: 356Location: Downtown Tacoma
First of all, as some have noted, this isn't bicycle hate. Hopefully most of us have gotten past the controversial headline - after all the PI has to somehow get people to read the newspaper. I'm glad this was published because it gets the word out that licensing is a dumb idea and also the fact that almost all bikers also own a car, or pay property taxes which contribute towards roads.
On a side note, I have lately been disappointed with .83's lack of stopping at stop signs. Unless I'm with you guys I almost always stop at stop signs and red lights (except the lights without proper sensors).
_________________ Tacoma isn't that bad... well maybe it is
ksep
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:40 pm
Joined: 27 Jan 2007Posts: 1879Location: Westlake
DJStroky wrote:
On a side note, I have lately been disappointed with .83's lack of stopping at stop signs. Unless I'm with you guys I almost always stop at stop signs and red lights (except the lights without proper sensors).
When you're out late and no one is around sometimes you need to ride with Idaho rules. "...shall slow down and, if required for safety, stop before entering the intersection."
_________________ -Kevin
the dreaded ben
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:58 pm
Grumpy GreebJoined: 20 Aug 2005Posts: 5329Location: flavor country
DJStroky wrote:
On a side note, I have lately been disappointed with .83's lack of stopping at stop signs. Unless I'm with you guys I almost always stop at stop signs and red lights (except the lights without proper sensors).
fully and firmly agreed.
if you don't need to give cyclists a bad name, ride like you aren't an idiot and stop at that stop sign.
and hand signals people.
TrikerTrev
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:25 pm
Joined: 23 Oct 2006Posts: 2303Location: FOCO, MOFO!!!
hey ben, i'm using a hand signal right now
MikeOD
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:12 pm
Joined: 04 Feb 2006Posts: 545
abamfici wrote:
DJStroky wrote:
On a side note, I have lately been disappointed with .83's lack of stopping at stop signs. Unless I'm with you guys I almost always stop at stop signs and red lights (except the lights without proper sensors).
When you're out late and no one is around sometimes you need to ride with Idaho rules. "...shall slow down and, if required for safety, stop before entering the intersection."
Agreed - ride it like you stole it in Idaho.
TrikerTrev
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:55 pm
Joined: 23 Oct 2006Posts: 2303Location: FOCO, MOFO!!!
really now, who the fuck sits thru a stop light on a bike when there's no traffic?
snyd3282
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:03 pm
could suck the fun out of a blowjobJoined: 23 Jul 2007Posts: 588Location: Ballard / Fremont
TrikerTrev wrote:
really now, who the fuck sits thru a stop light on a bike when there's no traffic?
Depends on the light, the night, and if there is a car sitting behind me.
If there isn't anyone around for 4 blocks, including behind or beside me, I'll run it.
If I have a car waiting at the light with me, I'm not going to piss them off. I'll wait for the green just like they are.
And sometimes, I'm just happy that the red light gives me a chance to stop and rest for a minute.
DJStroky
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:27 pm
Joined: 25 May 2007Posts: 356Location: Downtown Tacoma
TrikerTrev wrote:
really now, who the fuck sits thru a stop light on a bike when there's no traffic?
I do!!! It is against the law to run a red, however I will admit to (and in the event that I get caught I will challenge in court that the City is in the wrong and causes me to) "enter the roadway" during a "Steady red indication" when the stoplight will not sense a bicycle is waiting at the light.
RCW 46.61.750 (2) "These regulations applicable to bicycles apply whenever a bicycle is operated upon any highway or upon any bicycle path, subject to those exceptions stated herein."
RCW 46.61.055 (3) ...a bunch of legal mumbo jumbo, but no provisions for crossing the roadway on a red light.
Most busy traffic signals are on cycles that will eventually turn green which gives me a good opportunity to memorize the signal timing in the event that I need to do an alleycat on that road and it also helps me (and as I may have noticed Koos as well) in practicing the art of track stands. I also agree with snyder that I'm sometimes happy when reds give my lazyass a chance to rest.
However, this now is getting added to my unofficial list of citizen initiatives that I am seriously considering making an effort to be put to vote. Here is my list so far:
1. A revision to the RCW allowing roadway crossings during red lights if it is safe
2. Make death by vehicles equivalent to manslaughter under every circumstance
3. Give WSDOT provisions to move ahead with congestion pricing
4. Mandate a "cash out" option equivalent to the market price of parking for all business that provide their employees with free parking
5. A provision allowing retail businesses to be located in the bus tunnel
6. Give cities provisions to have the option to install parking demand management systems that charge variable parking fees for on-street parking
_________________ Tacoma isn't that bad... well maybe it is
TrikerTrev
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:51 am
Joined: 23 Oct 2006Posts: 2303Location: FOCO, MOFO!!!
i'd vote for those initiatives, and I buy your logic as to why you would chill @ a red when theres no traffic, i still think it's silly to wait for no reason other than a timer.
...but...
the argument that you don't do it cause its illegal holds water like a sieve. you drink in public, ride CM, and i'm sure theres a plethora of others I know nothing about. no offense, cause i consider you a brother in arms (amongst other things), but it's silly to use that " 'cause it's the law" if you don't follow every single rule to the letter.
ya follow?
but i hold no grudge for those who choose whatever they choose. run it, yield to it, stop and wait...whatever.
john
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:53 am
AAAARRRRRGGGGbllll pppphtt!Joined: 26 Aug 2006Posts: 725Location: In the lab.
TrikerTrev wrote:
but it's silly to use that " 'cause it's the law" if you don't follow every single rule to the letter.
.
Especially when everyone breaks the speed limit.
Modern speed limits were designed with 1960 sedans in mind, and the interstate speed limit was designed with optimal fuel efficiency at cruise of a mid 70's sedan. They are defunct laws that do nothing productive because they are not designed around what they are supposed to protect.
The same argument goes for traffic lights. The founding fathers of roadway design did not encounter the concept of rapid increase in bicycle commuting when they designed the public intersection and traffic light flow patterns. Nay, that was the era when the dream of the 12 lane super highway ruled the minds of the common man and the dream was for personal movers so we need not bear the burden of horizontal movement with the muscles of our legs. Intersection flow control was designedin a time when bicycles were a ridiculous contraption and not for serious consideration.
Intersections should be dealt with in the way a rider feels safe. Only the individuals adaptive technique can be considered the correct solution.
And most people I see commuting on 1st ave in the morning demonstrate this logic... easing through every light along the route... why? Because it is a lot safer than doing the start-off drag race with the cars in line. Cars don't look for bikes when the light changes, they look to accelerate as fast as they can. A car is safer when it is up at cruising speed and they are casing the sidewalk for cute secretaries wiggling their way to work.
That being said, there are lights you stop at and there are lights you don't stop at, it depends on the intersection design.
Obeying the law because it is the law is lemmingville. If people say you should obey the law because it is the law, then they should scrutinize their own behavior carefully to make sure they obey every law there is. For to be a person that orally enforces the law upon others, cursing those who should choose to do otherwise... places that person on a pedestal of piety of being in perfect faithful obedience to their master society and the complete content of all of it's laws.
And yes, ride apart from the law and you have to pay the expediency tax leveled on you by the city... but if you are looking carefully enough you tend to not have to pay the expediency tax. If you are levied with the expediency tax, then you carefully explain you philosophy of cycling safety and the breadth of your experience with the application of your cycling philosophy to your riding to the magistrate and he will mitigate the expediency tax and allow you to make payments. If you make enough continuances in the whole process then you do your part to make the revenue acquisition a fruitless venture for the state which is a fine way of communicating to the actuarial advisors who guide the policy of the revenue acquisition department who do in fact to some degree guide the policies of who the revenue acquisition department judges most harshly. Hence every opportunity for the cyclist to make themselves look like a fruitless target should in fact be taken.. as if we become a solid revenue source in the actuarial eyes of the revenue acquisition department, that holds far greater doom for us than the mild anti cycling rantings of Joe six pack on the internet rant boards...
Care should be had however as the city of seattle is currently attempting to cite cyclists as committing moving violations using the argument of RCW 46.61.755 to say that citations are traffic-moving hence an effect upon your insurance. This would cause a potential interest in a far more evil and insidious effect of the possible interest by the actuarial advisors of the insurance system... and we most dearly want them to know as little as they can about cyclists... for they are the most cunning and dangerous of evils in our modern society.
And in the spirit of stopping at red lights... there will be a black cat bike club ride very very very soon... with absinthe and much craziness... I just need the go from my doctor... or Gregg needs to initiate... it will be great fun for all... Hell... we might even stop at a red light!
_________________ In der Not frisst der Teufel Fliegen.
Joined: 23 Oct 2006Posts: 2303Location: FOCO, MOFO!!!
Good Christ, John...you don't expect anyone to actually READ that, do you?
langston
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:25 am
Joined: 25 Jul 2005Posts: 5547Location: Columbia City
I have great stories about running red lights downtown in the face of police, and walking away unmolested.
Last night was the most recent incident;
I ran the intersection of 1st & Cherry not noticing the marked cruiser waiting patiently at the head of the line. Since he didn't pull me over, and because I'm a raging idiot, I proceeded to run the next four lights going up 1st. I wasn't pulled over, yelled at or ticketed. At each intersection I passed stopped cars to get to the head of the line, and when the intersection was clear I ran the red.
This goes into the pile of stories including having a red-light ticket thrown out by a magistrate, having a motorcycle cop follow me through 5 lights on 3rd heading south and getting a verbal warning and having a cop yell at me after running 3 reds to put new batteries in my rear light because it was dark out and I wasn't as visible as I could be.
Red lights can lick my sack.
john
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:53 am
AAAARRRRRGGGGbllll pppphtt!Joined: 26 Aug 2006Posts: 725Location: In the lab.
TrikerTrev wrote:
Good Christ, John...you don't expect anyone to actually READ that, do you?
Dude... you don't even need to say it...I'll say it... I need to get out and ride...
but hell... it looks like Langston read it...
and to follow his story.. the one time I have gotten a tcket, the cop said this "I saw you make the illegal left back there across traffic onto spokane and i figured I'd let you go. But the next one you ran was between two crossing semi trucks, that's just stupid, you on a race to your funeral?"
To which i replied quite without pause, "well, I wouldn't have to take the midterm I am late for then!"
It takes a lot to get a ticket for blowing reds... police have better things to do than swat at mosquitoes that don't have the potential kinetic energy to damage anything else out there... you have to really go over the top... and then you have to smart off to the cop... Gregg's better at the smarting off to cops than I am... so he has more points than I do... you should hear his dialog with nice occifers.
_________________ In der Not frisst der Teufel Fliegen.
Grumpy GreebJoined: 20 Aug 2005Posts: 5329Location: flavor country
langston wrote:
Red lights can lick my sack.
what if everyone did that?
i've seen it, it's china, it licks sack.
john
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 12:06 pm
AAAARRRRRGGGGbllll pppphtt!Joined: 26 Aug 2006Posts: 725Location: In the lab.
the dreaded ben wrote:
langston wrote:
Red lights can lick my sack.
what if everyone did that?
i've seen it, it's china, it licks sack.
That's kinda interesting Ben... if you mean that all cyclists run red lights in China and that turns out to be bad for cyclists.. can you actually (and without .83 speak) give a concise example of what you mean. I (and probably about 100 people lurking this list)would really be interested in hearing about what you see.
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now with 50 percent more EVIL
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rocker boi
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