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jeff

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:48 pm

SOC pussy Joined: 05 May 2006 Posts: 4501

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004246868_webbikecrash27m.html

Quote:

Prosecutors won't file felony charges in fatal bike accident
By Seattle Times staff

Prosecutors have decided not to file felony charges against a driver whose dump truck killed 19-year-old bicyclist Bryce Lewis last summer near Seattle's University Bridge.

The truck was turning right, on a green light, from northbound Eastlake Avenue East to Fuhrman Avenue East on Sept. 7. Lewis and a friend were riding straight in the bike lane of Eastlake, toward the bridge, when the truck rolled into their path. There is no evidence the driver was drunk, using drugs or speeding, said Dan Donohoe, spokesman for the King County Prosecuting Attorney's Office.

Witnesses said the trucker was using his turn signal, and apparently did not see the cyclists approaching, Donohoe said. The case is being referred to the city attorney's office for a potential misdemeanor charge.

TrikerTrev

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:25 pm

Joined: 23 Oct 2006 Posts: 2303 Location: FOCO, MOFO!!!

fucking fabulous

not to mention this gem here...http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/6420ap_wa_skateboard_fatal.html

seems that Washington is THE place to kill people with a car (truck, whatever).

i'd especially like the thank the city for blowing sun up my ass by painting lane markers and creating RCW laws that mean exactly jack shit.

_________________
Insufferable ass, est. 1969

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:11 pm

Joined: 03 Aug 2007 Posts: 179 Location: by that one arco am/pm

how can you not get a felony for killing a dude

i am ignorant of the law, so this seems really surprising

_________________
god damn problem bees

vaticdart

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:34 pm

Joined: 02 Aug 2007 Posts: 649 Location: Inside a Bell

I feel for Bryce, his family and his friends. I shook hands with his father at the memorial ride. How would prosecuting the truck driver help anything? From the reports at the time, as I recall, he was in tears over what happened. If he was signaling, wasn't speeding or driving recklessly, then while he is at fault, I don't think any sort of actual charges, felony or otherwise, are in order.

Bicycles should check for traffic turning right; motorists should check for bicycle traffic before turning either way, but here that obviously didn't happen. We have two flows of traffic that didn't see each other with catastrophic results.

Get the truck company's insurance for whatever is appropriate (how do you put a value on a life?), but leave the driver alone. I'm betting the driver is a just a dude who screwed up and will have to live with that for the rest of his life.

If someone catches him laughing about it on the phone, then we can nail the fucker to a cross.

Edit: I, too, confess to being ignorant of the law in matters like this. I am speaking merely from my own moral convictions.

_________________
If the river was whiskey I'd turn myself into a duck, I'd dive to the bottom and never come up.

TrikerTrev

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:49 pm

Joined: 23 Oct 2006 Posts: 2303 Location: FOCO, MOFO!!!

A felony indicates forethought and malice in committing a crime; Whereas a misdemeanor is the lesser punishment standard for a crime not intended, or due to negligence.

My guess is the dump truck driver will get something along the lines of involuntary manslaughter, but i would think he should be charged with vehicular manslaughter. But considering he was clean, they will probably go for the lesser charge.

Still, too little for KILLING A PERSON, in my opinion.

<edit>
Even thought the driver is in remorse of the accident, we live in a country of law and punishment...not that all may fit, but none the less. I'm no lawyer (duh), but if you make a mistake that kills a person, being sorry about or not, you're still responsible for your actions.

Do I feel bad for the driver, you bet...if he's remorseful. But he did make a massive error in judgment that will forever effect many, many innocent people. And for that, he should be punished.

I would stand the same ground for any instance when one person injures or kills another, accident or not.

_________________
Insufferable ass, est. 1969

vaticdart

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:33 pm

Joined: 02 Aug 2007 Posts: 649 Location: Inside a Bell

TrikerTrev wrote:

<edit>
Even thought the driver is in remorse of the accident, we live in a country of law and punishment...not that all may fit, but none the less. I'm no lawyer (duh), but if you make a mistake that kills a person, being sorry about or not, you're still responsible for your actions.

Do I feel bad for the driver, you bet...if he's remorseful. But he did make a massive error in judgment that will forever effect many, many innocent people. And for that, he should be punished.

I would stand the same ground for any instance when one person injures or kills another, accident or not.

Very true. Character counts regarding the degree of the charge and the sentence though; showing remorse over one's horrible mistake makes me less inclined to think we, as a society, should throw the book at someone.

So yes, charge him if that's what the law says needs to happen, but given that the cyclists also have a responsibility in that situation to check for vehicles performing just such a maneuver (and yes, the truck driver has an even greater responsibility to check for cyclists or peds), both parties were at fault and that too should be taken into consideration.

It's not just "one of those things" certainly, but turning the driver into teriyaki, regardless of how tasty he may be over white rice with a side of watered-down-mayo-cabbage, won't help.

A society that doesn't assume that everyone knows how to drive with a few hours of lackluster training would be a good place to start.

_________________
If the river was whiskey I'd turn myself into a duck, I'd dive to the bottom and never come up.

snyd3282

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:38 pm

could suck the fun out of a blowjob Joined: 23 Jul 2007 Posts: 588 Location: Ballard / Fremont

I mentioned a desire to set up something, possibly a class, that would let cyclists get in a truck and see what a hard time they have with visibility. I haven't spent a lot of time on it yet, but I have a contact at Ballard Oil who has already gone out and photographed how hard it is for a truck driver to see out the right hand side of the truck (right where Seattle's laws let cyclists pass).

He has an interesting position on the whole "put the burke up through the ballard industrial zone" plan. He wants to shut his business down the day before the conditions are such that he or his drivers are likely to kill someone. He would trade his livelyhood and that of his employees before doing something that he thinks has a serious risk of injury to someone else.

Anyway, as soon as I can get a digital version of his photos, I will post them.

Eric_s

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:19 pm

Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Posts: 1691 Location: the dirty south

snyd3282 wrote:

He has an interesting position on the whole "put the burke up through the ballard industrial zone" plan..

The burke already goes through that area, in effect, because shilshole is the best route to get to 24th/market. I ride it all the time, as I'm sure you do too, mr snyder. Ballard ave sucks for bikes, really.

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That's Lemmy, Not Jesus.

DOUG.

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:40 am

Joined: 29 Jan 2007 Posts: 117 Location: Wallingford

I see too many dump truck drivers driving way too wildly through densely-populated areas of Seattle these days -- speeding up through yellow lights, turning too quickly into blind crosswalks and other boneheaded moves. Perhaps they're used to working/driving in rural areas and don't realize that pedestrians and cyclists may be crossing their path. I don't know if this particular driver was ignorant of urban obstacles, but it makes me wonder.

snyd3282

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:41 am

could suck the fun out of a blowjob Joined: 23 Jul 2007 Posts: 588 Location: Ballard / Fremont

Yes, I go through the lower part of that area daily, but I live a little too far to the east to take the 24th-Shillshole route more than once a week.

With the route as it currently is, it keeps all the newbie and timid cyclists off of shilshole. If a paved trail were to be placed beside shilshole, we would likely see a lot of small children and very inexperienced cyclists start using that corridor.

TrikerTrev

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:39 am

Joined: 23 Oct 2006 Posts: 2303 Location: FOCO, MOFO!!!

1- I'm not advocating throwing the book at this guy (that ran over Bryce), but...

2- until we as cyclists are considered valid transportation and treated with the same respect as those in encased in steel and glass...

3- the punishment will NOT fit the crime.

The problem boils down to this: cyclists are seen and treated as second class (at best) citizens. The same goes for pedestrians, motorcycles, skaters, ext. If you're not encased in a vehicle, then your not treated with the same respect and regard from those around you, and the law enforcement follows suit, regardless of the rules we expect everyone to abide by.

It's like Deathrace 2000.

I believe it's the sociopathic effect vehicles have on individuals these days. No consideration for the individuals around you because you don't have to interact with them on a direct individual and interpersonal level. You just sit in your bubble and do whatever you like until you finally make a catastrophic mistake due to apathy.

People don't act like complete shitheads when they are forced to engage with each other, usually (concerts, sporting events, classrooms, etc.). When people aren't forced to directly interact with each other, and there is little repercussion to their actions on a daily basis, they become what we directly experience today...selfish, inconsiderate, destructive assholes.

Bottom line, you do something that inadvertently kills or maims a person, you do serious time and pay restitution (Law of physics; of every action there is an equal and opposite reaction).

_________________
Insufferable ass, est. 1969

jillita

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:06 am

Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 744 Location: the westside

TrikerTrev wrote:

2- until we as cyclists are considered valid transportation and treated with the same respect as those in encased in steel and glass...

Then start by obeying the rules of traffic and not blowing through stop signs.

martin

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:26 am

Joined: 30 Jan 2006 Posts: 712

jillita wrote:

TrikerTrev wrote:

2- until we as cyclists are considered valid transportation and treated with the same respect as those in encased in steel and glass...

Then start by obeying the rules of traffic and not blowing through stop signs.

amen!

jeff

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:32 am

SOC pussy Joined: 05 May 2006 Posts: 4501

Tsk tsking a group that rides drunk and stoned seems a bit much.

derrickito

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:37 am

now with 50 percent more EVIL Joined: 22 Jul 2005 Posts: 10566

i dont think the guy would have been treated any differently if bryce was in a car and killed by the dump truck. would have been chalked up to "accident"

it sucks to see someone die by bicycle, but is he being treated less harshly because of the person not being in a car? not that i can see

simple fact is that on a bicycle you're more prone to injury when you get in an accident with a truck or car, be careful not to get in that accident in the first place. as cyclists we seem to get awfully hot and bothered when a car or truck gets in "our space" and threatens our safety.. rightly so... but we have to remember that it's our choice to go and ride streets without a safety cage, we are taking a bigger chance out there

lantius

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:42 am

1337 Joined: 22 Jul 2005 Posts: 6705 Location: right over

jillita wrote:

TrikerTrev wrote:

2- until we as cyclists are considered valid transportation and treated with the same respect as those in encased in steel and glass...

Then start by obeying the rules of traffic and not blowing through stop signs.

so does that mean that i don't have to respect the lives of drivers that speed or disobey the rules of traffic?

n_claw

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:43 am

Joined: 02 Jul 2007 Posts: 517 Location: the only hill: Beacon

1) Sketch was happy to pull us over and show us around a truck at Peterbilt this last Slow Sunday, and given that he has plenty of access to large trucks, I'm sure he'd be happy to teach a class.

2) I'm not so much concerned with the driver as I am the flagger who flagged Bryce/Caleb thru the intersection, as well as the dump truck. It was a shitty unsafe set-up from the get-go, and construction only made it worse.

(crawls back into hole)

derrickito

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:58 am

now with 50 percent more EVIL Joined: 22 Jul 2005 Posts: 10566

important information in chart form:

TrikerTrev

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:14 am

Joined: 23 Oct 2006 Posts: 2303 Location: FOCO, MOFO!!!

jillita wrote:

TrikerTrev wrote:

2- until we as cyclists are considered valid transportation and treated with the same respect as those in encased in steel and glass...

Then start by obeying the rules of traffic and not blowing through stop signs.

don't patronize me. you've never seen me commute outside riding with pointeethree to my knowledge.

ride with me on my normal commute and i'll show you all about obeying the road rules while i bike.

what we collectively do in this group is not the subject of the discussion.

_________________
Insufferable ass, est. 1969

TrikerTrev

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:23 am

Joined: 23 Oct 2006 Posts: 2303 Location: FOCO, MOFO!!!

derrickito wrote:

i couldn't agree more, really.

And i'm not saying they ARE treating him less harshly, because there have not been ANY charges filed yet. I'll reserve judgment until that time. I just don't have any faith in the system.

It do my panties in a wad when someone is killed of maimed by a careless driver and they get what amounts to a slap on the hand. It happens time and time again. I don't think this society in general gets upset enough about the imbalance of crime vs punishment. I don't have the time nor the inclination to pull examples, but i'm sure you all can understand the point.

Life is precious, but you wouldn't assume that based on the punishment some folks get. A few years here, a couple thousand dollars there, please...some punishments just dont fit the crime.

_________________
Insufferable ass, est. 1969

vaticdart

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:26 am

Joined: 02 Aug 2007 Posts: 649 Location: Inside a Bell

jeff wrote:

Tsk tsking a group that rides drunk and stoned seems a bit much.

In a group ride I'm down with "taking the streets" as long its not Critical Mass on every ride (I still haven't done Mass, so I have no position on its merits). A group of 20 - 50 cyclists is hard to miss, even if only half of us have lights, and inconvenience of a few seconds to drivers isn't a horrible fate to inflict for the sake of keeping the group together. I always evaluate the situation when approaching an intersection I'm going to blow, and if I don't think it's safe then I stop.

On your own is a different matter. The idiocy I encounter from my fellow cyclists is about equal to the idiocy I encounter from motorists, although the cyclists aren't as scary. Blowing stop signs (and I don't mean not stopping, I mean not slowing down), lights, riding the wrong way on one way streets, performing weird and unpredictable turns, and on the Burke the idiocy reaches a whole new level we're all familiar with.

You're perfectly free to do those things, but then you give up your right to bitch about drivers being reckless (yes, a reckless cyclist can kill, directly or indirectly) and bitch when you get a ticket for them, as cyclists are wont to do. Be an adult, take responsibility for your choices, and if you're breaking the law and the law gets you, don't whine.

_________________
If the river was whiskey I'd turn myself into a duck, I'd dive to the bottom and never come up.

jeff

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:30 am

SOC pussy Joined: 05 May 2006 Posts: 4501

vaticdart wrote:

jeff wrote:

Tsk tsking a group that rides drunk and stoned seems a bit much.

TL;DR

That's why I have a bus pass.

Stanglor

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:31 am

Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 555 Location: Wallingford

TrikerTrev wrote:

don't patronize me.

Then maybe you should consider giving up the training wheels and get a big kid bike.

/CheapShot@Trike

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Confidential to everybody: "Pearl necklace" is out. "Cheney" is in. Pass it on.

TrikerTrev

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:32 am

Joined: 23 Oct 2006 Posts: 2303 Location: FOCO, MOFO!!!

n_claw wrote:

1) Sketch was happy to pull us over and show us around a truck at Peterbilt this last Slow Sunday, and given that he has plenty of access to large trucks, I'm sure he'd be happy to teach a class.

that would that be cool for those who have never been in a big rig.

I did challenge sketch to try to come up with something that could help a driver see a cyclist. I've been in positions in the past where with the equipment i operated could kill if the operator was not 110% aware of their surroundings at all times. Theres a reason things like back-up beepers and concave mirrors exist...someone figured a way to be more alert and or alerted.

n_claw wrote:

2) I'm not so much concerned with the driver as I am the flagger who flagged Bryce/Caleb thru the intersection, as well as the dump truck. It was a shitty unsafe set-up from the get-go, and construction only made it worse.

We should be considering with both...and THANKS for bringing up that very important point...the flagger. I totally forgot about that. They were waived through. there is still a buttload of construction going on down there and have any of you seen a change in process, awareness, signage? Anything? I haven't.

_________________
Insufferable ass, est. 1969

TrikerTrev

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:34 am

Joined: 23 Oct 2006 Posts: 2303 Location: FOCO, MOFO!!!

Stanglor wrote:

TrikerTrev wrote:

don't patronize me.

Then maybe you should consider giving up the training wheels and get a big kid bike.

/CheapShot@Trike

you don't want me racing on a sub 15 lb bike, do you? that thing is a tank ya know.

_________________
Insufferable ass, est. 1969

the dreaded ben

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:39 am

Grumpy Greeb Joined: 20 Aug 2005 Posts: 5329 Location: flavor country

if we talk about it more on the internet all of our problems will go away.

tehschkott

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:40 am

daywalker Joined: 09 Nov 2007 Posts: 6108 Location: Hatertown

On this last Slow Sunday ride on our way out to Georgetown, Sketchy had us pull into his work. Had me sit on the corner of the truck with my bike and one by one had people climb into the drivers seat of one of these big trucks to demonstrate exactly how hard it is for a driver - even an especially attentive and cautious driver, to see a cyclist. And in thise case, the truck wasn't even moving, and it still all but impossible.

Truth is we always have to fix it in our heads when we ride up on a really big rig in the right hand lane to either be in front of it or firmly behind it and nowhere inbetween (or beside) them. Even - or perhaps especially - stopped at stoplights/signs. Again, either get in front of it so the driver sees you, or stay "behind" it until you pass the intersection.

I'm not even going to touch what the driver should or could have done. I'm more concerned with what I can do to avoid situations like that from happening to me. The fact of the matter is there are things we can do, like looking both ways before crossing the street, that will keep us from harms way. Evidently this is one of them.

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Razi

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:12 am

Joined: 16 Dec 2005 Posts: 866 Location: Seattle

My mother worked for more than a decade as a prison physician. Considering sending anyone to prison is a consideration that should not be taken lightly, at all. More than we realize, even a "light" prison sentence turns into what amounts to a death sentence.

I like to think that incarceration and criminal prosecution should be reserved for those whose behavior is fundamentally criminal (most drug offenders do not quality in my book).

Did Bryce die a violent death? Extremely violent. But was his death the result of malice? No. It can hardly even be suggested that his death was a result of moral weakness. He died because of a systemic problem that we are all too familiar with. He died because as a society we tolerate a spatial organization of our environment in such a way that fragile human beings need to interact in close quarters with lethally industrial behemoths that are operated by fallible humans, with fallible senses.

Laws exist to serve justice. But justice is a human invention and not a physical law. We are not talking Newtonian mechanics here. Where human life is concerned, for every action there really is no equal and opposite reaction. So we are left to try and create this equilibrium by clumsily using tools of justice to approximate an equal and opposite reaction. Sometimes we convince ourselves that this formulaic system is working. Sometimes it might even work (we can never really know).

But there is great danger in assuming that laws of man even remotely resemble laws of nature. In this case, laws of man placed both people in the same intersection. Laws of nature dictated Bryce's mortality under the wheels of a truck. And we are left wondering what laws of man can somehow make this right.

Last edited by Razi on Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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a new enemy has invaded our shores...

TrikerTrev

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:27 am

Joined: 23 Oct 2006 Posts: 2303 Location: FOCO, MOFO!!!

the dreaded ben wrote:

if we talk about it more on the internet all of our problems will go away.

yeah, it hasn't worked for your widdle toe, has it?

guys, thanks for letting me ramble. Razi, Scott, you've made good points.

prost!

_________________
Insufferable ass, est. 1969

tehschkott

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:50 am

daywalker Joined: 09 Nov 2007 Posts: 6108 Location: Hatertown

Well said Razi

Laws of man don't stand up against the laws of physics.

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Razi

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:11 pm

Joined: 16 Dec 2005 Posts: 866 Location: Seattle

Thanks.

Admittedly, this is a topic I think about a lot.

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a new enemy has invaded our shores...

jillita

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:26 pm

Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 744 Location: the westside

lantius wrote:

so does that mean that i don't have to respect the lives of drivers that speed or disobey the rules of traffic?

No, I don't respect them either and would still like to have a flame thrower mounted on my stem for the next FedEx truck that almost takes me out. There will always be asshole drives, which we can't change, but we can try to influence the bad habits of fellow cyclists that we have greater access to.

TrikerTrev wrote:

Relax dude. I was directing that towards the cycling collective, not you in particular. There was a lot of talk recently about needing to actually STOP at the stop signs along the Burke. That's what precipitated my comment. I'm also particularly tired of seeing random cyclists blow through red lights while I obey the law, hoping against hope that drivers will leave with the impression that we are valid forms of transportation and we can coexist. It does us all no good to have other cyclists disregard basic transportation rules. For every ounce of respect I hope to gain by being a responsible cyclist, asshats like that leave me with a pound of shit.

We are in the minority. If we want respect, we have to earn it.

joby

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:34 pm

goes to eleven Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 3899 Location: The Cloud

jillita wrote:

lantius wrote:

so does that mean that i don't have to respect the lives of drivers that speed or disobey the rules of traffic?

TrikerTrev wrote:

We are in the minority. If we want respect, we have to earn it.

WE miss you guys. You should come ride bikes with us!

jillita

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:41 pm

Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 744 Location: the westside

joby wrote:

WE miss you guys. You should come ride bikes with us!

Bikes are stoopid.

the dreaded ben

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:05 pm

Grumpy Greeb Joined: 20 Aug 2005 Posts: 5329 Location: flavor country

jillita wrote:

Bikes are stoopid.

and haaaard!

TrikerTrev

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:17 pm

Joined: 23 Oct 2006 Posts: 2303 Location: FOCO, MOFO!!!

jillita wrote:

Relax dude. I was directing that towards the cycling collective, not you in particular.

noted, and chill applied...

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Insufferable ass, est. 1969

Eric_s

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:35 pm

Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Posts: 1691 Location: the dirty south

Giving way and being alive is a hell of a lot better than being right and being dead. I think about that all the time when I'm riding.

_________________
That's Lemmy, Not Jesus.

the dreaded ben

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:40 pm

Grumpy Greeb Joined: 20 Aug 2005 Posts: 5329 Location: flavor country

Eric_s wrote:

I think about that all the time when I'm riding.

that, and dongs.

MyNameIsJeff

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:08 pm

BOOSH! Joined: 17 Jul 2007 Posts: 2042 Location: Nearest bar.

MyNameIsJeff reporting to thread containing dongs.

vaticdart

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:36 pm

Joined: 02 Aug 2007 Posts: 649 Location: Inside a Bell

Eric_s wrote:

Giving way and being alive is a hell of a lot better than being right and being dead. I think about that all the time when I'm riding.

Another thing is that if and when I inevitably get turned into chunky jello by some asshat behind the wheel of their bimbo box, if I actually survive, I want to be as right as rain. I want there to be no question among the witnesses of who was at fault so I can get everything from their insurance that I need. New bike, injuries, time out of work, physical therapy, whatever.

If I don't survive then I'd very much like my gf or whoever to get the $250K or whatever most auto insurance gives out for negligent deaths.

There are a lot of things more important in the world than being right. Being alive just happens to be near the top of most people's list.

_________________
If the river was whiskey I'd turn myself into a duck, I'd dive to the bottom and never come up.

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