Joined: 12 Jan 2006Posts: 475Location: U-district/Ravenna
dennyt wrote:
Southbound ballard bridge to 15th curb cut.
Seconded. I'm always amazed that I don't hear of more fatalities from that piece of brilliance.
snyd3282
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:21 am
could suck the fun out of a blowjobJoined: 23 Jul 2007Posts: 588Location: Ballard / Fremont
dennyt wrote:
Southbound ballard bridge to 15th curb cut.
What change do we want to suggest?
I have discussed the curb cut with Pete Lagerway a few times. His position is that yes, it is a pain in the ass and you have to come to a full stop and wait, but we aren't seeing accidents and fatalities and there is a lot of high speed turning traffic at that corner.
lantius
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:12 am
1337Joined: 22 Jul 2005Posts: 6705Location: right over
snyd3282 wrote:
dennyt wrote:
Southbound ballard bridge to 15th curb cut.
What change do we want to suggest?
I have discussed the curb cut with Pete Lagerway a few times. His position is that yes, it is a pain in the ass and you have to come to a full stop and wait, but we aren't seeing accidents and fatalities and there is a lot of high speed turning traffic at that corner.
my suspicion is that people just don't use that route? it's really, really terrible.
gsbarnes
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:35 am
Joined: 15 Aug 2006Posts: 2666Location: No Fun Town, USA
lantius wrote:
snyd3282 wrote:
dennyt wrote:
Southbound ballard bridge to 15th curb cut.
What change do we want to suggest?
I have discussed the curb cut with Pete Lagerway a few times. His position is that yes, it is a pain in the ass and you have to come to a full stop and wait, but we aren't seeing accidents and fatalities and there is a lot of high speed turning traffic at that corner.
my suspicion is that people just don't use that route? it's really, really terrible.
The Ballard Bridge is terrible for bikes, peds, and cars. Ever try to drive the flyover from Fisherman's terminal and merge into the northbound lane with cars doing 50mph? It's just an awful, awful slice of hell.
I bet if they built a ped/bike bridge next to it there'd be room to make the car on and off-ramps work. Or at least work better. And wasn't this like, the number one worst spot in Seattle when Nickels held his public poll on crappy road conditions a couple of years back? Definitely top 5, and most of the rest were picked because plans were already in the works to improve them.
One fix they could do to improve the Ballard Bridge area without building a new bridge is to push through the bike path under the south bridge approaches, and connect it up to the bridge sidewalk somehow.
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snyd3282
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:41 am
could suck the fun out of a blowjobJoined: 23 Jul 2007Posts: 588Location: Ballard / Fremont
[quote="lantius"][quote="snyd3282"]
dennyt wrote:
Southbound ballard bridge to 15th curb cut.
Quote:
my suspicion is that people just don't use that route? it's really, really terrible.
I agree and expressed the same thing in talking to Pete.
His best suggestion at the moment is for SDOT to finish the trail on the south side of the ship canal so that it meets up with the Elliot Bay Trail and then sign a route from the south end of the ballard bridge, heading west at that first intersection, following the sidewalk until it could merge with the combined set of trails. ETA 1-2 years if I remember right.
joby
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:56 am
goes to elevenJoined: 25 Jul 2005Posts: 3899Location: The Cloud
snyd3282 wrote:
dennyt wrote:
Southbound ballard bridge to 15th curb cut.
What change do we want to suggest?
I have discussed the curb cut with Pete Lagerway a few times. His position is that yes, it is a pain in the ass and you have to come to a full stop and wait, but we aren't seeing accidents and fatalities and there is a lot of high speed turning traffic at that corner.
that spot is absolutely the worst place in Seattle for bikes. during some times of the day, there IS NEVER a break in traffic. you eventually just have to go and hope that cars slow for you.
The Ballard bridge is the only route south out of Ballard. people do *miles* long detours to avoid this spot. Probably some people who live in Ballard simply opt to never ride downtown. It's not like westlake or stone way where a 3 block detour will let you avoid the trouble all together.
Talk about missing links. Ballard to downtown is an ideal bike commute corridor, and this spot makes it too scary for 90% of new riders.
It seems to me that the only realistic option is a bike-lane underpass beneath W. Emerson street. This is already the route pedestrians are expected to take; there's a stairway and sidewalk provided for them.
joby
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:02 pm
goes to elevenJoined: 25 Jul 2005Posts: 3899Location: The Cloud
[quote="snyd3282"][quote="lantius"]
snyd3282 wrote:
dennyt wrote:
Southbound ballard bridge to 15th curb cut.
Quote:
my suspicion is that people just don't use that route? it's really, really terrible.
I agree and expressed the same thing in talking to Pete.
His best suggestion at the moment is for SDOT to finish the trail on the south side of the ship canal so that it meets up with the Elliot Bay Trail and then sign a route from the south end of the ballard bridge, heading west at that first intersection, following the sidewalk until it could merge with the combined set of trails. ETA 1-2 years if I remember right.
Yeah, I go this way sometimes now. It adds a mile, and a large hill, and 10-15 minutes. The city needs to fix this spot. it's nuts. It's a core arterial of the city, and there's simply no safe way for bikes to use it.
TrikerTrev
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:58 pm
Joined: 23 Oct 2006Posts: 2303Location: FOCO, MOFO!!!
maybe you can suggest that SLB can help the SDOT dig holes and place some damn "this is what a Sharrow means" signs; or just some more "bike lane" signs in general.
I agree with Razi as Fairview needs work...considering the amount of cycle traffic it receives.
as far as the ballard intersection (i'm not familiar with it), but the comment "His position is that yes, it is a pain in the ass and you have to come to a full stop and wait, but we aren't seeing accidents and fatalities and there is a lot of high speed turning traffic at that corner." is concerning. Does it take an accident or fatality to get their attention?
I thought the point is to get them to listen to us regarding problem areas BEFORE it becomes 5 o'clock news.
_________________ Insufferable ass, est. 1969
snyd3282
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:09 pm
could suck the fun out of a blowjobJoined: 23 Jul 2007Posts: 588Location: Ballard / Fremont
My list of complaints about the ballard bridge / 15th corridor are:
1. The bridge approach is horribly narrow. Two people can't pass eachother on the bike/ped path without stopping first.
2. Lighting is scaled for cars. Debris in the bike/ped path on the bridge approach is almost impossible to see. (and lights are often burned out)
3. The cutout on the south end of the approach, southbound, forces a 90 degree merge into traffic from a stop. I wonder if a "Bikes entering road. Right lane must stop for the bike" sign plus push-button activated flashing light would work there.
4. Rippled pavement and debris in many places.
5. The road is designed for 65mph traffic and despite the slower speed limit, drivers often travel 55mph.
6. Little to no wayfinding signs to get to the trail through the BNSF switchyard.
7. Northbound, there isn't a marked place for bikes to merge through for the magnolia flyover and nickerson exit.
...but I end up doing this route a couple times a month because it is a direct route from Ballard to Downtown and vice versa and it is a crappy enough experience that you have to be crazy to take it. I do it, but I'd never take a child with me on that route.
Razi
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:38 pm
Joined: 16 Dec 2005Posts: 866Location: Seattle
dennyt wrote:
Southbound ballard bridge to 15th curb cut.
Could someone tag this spot on a map? I rarely do BB southbound (more frequently coming north) and am not sure what the area in question is, but am curious.
I commute from Ballard and would rather risk my life on Westlake then cross the hell bridge.
If you need to commute through Ballard go through the locks. That's like a mile out of the way but worth it.
Peace,
Chris
snyd3282
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:34 pm
could suck the fun out of a blowjobJoined: 23 Jul 2007Posts: 588Location: Ballard / Fremont
That is a great photo. To emphasize the point, I think I'm going to find a peak traffic time and record a couple minutes of video. Is 7-9am a pretty good time to have horrid conditions, or is there a better time?
Eric_s
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:45 pm
Joined: 07 Mar 2007Posts: 1691Location: the dirty south
Something tells me that that picture is incorrectly annotated. I've fixed it:
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gsbarnes
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:38 pm
Joined: 15 Aug 2006Posts: 2666Location: No Fun Town, USA
Eric_s wrote:
Something tells me that that picture is incorrectly annotated. I've fixed it:
But that picture isn't even the half of it, as just after this point (roughly where the photographer is) is a possible right turn for the cars, to Fisherman's Terminal. So you can't just merge onto the road, you have to merge and immediately watch out for the right hook.
_________________ I have always thought in the back of my mind: Cheese and Onions
surlykat
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:44 pm
Joined: 05 Jul 2007Posts: 658Location: in the CD
That spot right there is one reason I never ride on the sidewalk on the Ballard Bridge. I figure, if the city can't create safe alternative places for me to ride my bike, I'm going to ride it with the other vehicles, in traffic. Of course, this makes me all sorts of friends, riding along at 10 mph taking the lane, but the thought of riding my bike down that narrow little sidewalk with its perilous concrete walls makes me shiver.
Then again, I neither live nor work near the Ballard Bridge and cross it only rarely. I'm lucky enough to have a commute which takes me across the *one* bridge in this city with acceptable bike facilities.
Then again (again), my commute also takes me through the intersection where Bryce was killed last year, so I'm not exactly immune to the commuting dangers...
langston
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:55 pm
Joined: 25 Jul 2005Posts: 5547Location: Columbia City
surlykat wrote:
Then again, I neither live nor work near the Ballard Bridge and cross it only rarely. I'm lucky enough to have a commute which takes me across the *one* bridge in this city with acceptable bike facilities.
..
I see you the University Bridge and raise you I-90. Bike tunnel FTW.
gsbarnes
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:10 pm
Joined: 15 Aug 2006Posts: 2666Location: No Fun Town, USA
langston wrote:
surlykat wrote:
Then again, I neither live nor work near the Ballard Bridge and cross it only rarely. I'm lucky enough to have a commute which takes me across the *one* bridge in this city with acceptable bike facilities.
..
I see you the University Bridge and raise you I-90. Bike tunnel for the win.
The 20th Ave NE bridge over Ravenna Park is closed to motorized traffic. I win.
_________________ I have always thought in the back of my mind: Cheese and Onions
surlykat
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:27 pm
Joined: 05 Jul 2007Posts: 658Location: in the CD
gsbarnes wrote:
langston wrote:
surlykat wrote:
Then again, I neither live nor work near the Ballard Bridge and cross it only rarely. I'm lucky enough to have a commute which takes me across the *one* bridge in this city with acceptable bike facilities.
..
I see you the University Bridge and raise you I-90. Bike tunnel for the win.
The 20th Ave NE bridge over Ravenna Park is closed to motorized traffic. I win.
I-90 bridge is not "in Seattle."
I''ll concede the 20th Ave NE bridge... but I was referring to major bridges, crossing waterways which cannot be circumnavigated by land. I'm sure we could find some others that are more bike-friendly than the U bridge...
gsbarnes
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:47 pm
Joined: 15 Aug 2006Posts: 2666Location: No Fun Town, USA
surlykat wrote:
I''ll concede the 20th Ave NE bridge... but I was referring to major bridges, crossing waterways which cannot be circumnavigated by land. I'm sure we could find some others that are more bike-friendly than the U bridge...
You can circumnavigate the University Bridge (and all ship canal bridges). It's called the Lake Washington Loop.
Circumnavigating the Duwamish, on the other hand, seems rather difficult.
_________________ I have always thought in the back of my mind: Cheese and Onions
surlykat
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:23 pm
Joined: 05 Jul 2007Posts: 658Location: in the CD
gsbarnes wrote:
You can circumnavigate the University Bridge (and all ship canal bridges). It's called the Lake Washington Loop.
Circumnavigating the Duwamish, on the other hand, seems rather difficult.
_________________ I have always thought in the back of my mind: Cheese and Onions
joby
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:00 pm
goes to elevenJoined: 25 Jul 2005Posts: 3899Location: The Cloud
my kids and I just walked down and took some pictures.
It really seems to me that there's space to fix this with a bobcat and some asphalt (as I've illustrated with my 'leet mspaint skills in the last picture).
Some problems are going to take more than lane striping. This is one of them.
Overview from the overpass:
Looking north:
Looking south: (If you don't merge left through the cut, you get forced down to fisherman's terminal)
There's a steep staircase for pedestrians:
can haz bikepath?
Last edited by joby on Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
TrikerTrev
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:42 pm
Joined: 23 Oct 2006Posts: 2303Location: FOCO, MOFO!!!
ya know, Joby, point well made!
that's some fuctarded roadway engineering ya got there.
i bet we'd make the news again if we brought that little jem to light with another Stone Way style bike loop.
...that is unless the ELF dosen't take out another bridge on our ride day...
_________________ Insufferable ass, est. 1969
dennyt
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:02 pm
rocket mechanicJoined: 02 Aug 2005Posts: 2708
Best blue lane ever!
snyd3282
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:11 pm
could suck the fun out of a blowjobJoined: 23 Jul 2007Posts: 588Location: Ballard / Fremont
And yeah, Joby, I think I asked the can haz bikepath option too, and maybe it could happen in a few years, but it isn't happening this year.
ksep
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:23 pm
Joined: 27 Jan 2007Posts: 1879Location: Westlake
frozenquest wrote:
I commute from Ballard and would rather risk my life on Westlake then cross the hell bridge.
The parking lot adjacent to Westlake really isn't so bad, I always take it. And southbound you get kicked over to 9th Ave N. which is also nice.
joby wrote:
awesome pics
very nice! we could have one heck of a protest route. humm. with high speed traffic whipping by in the next lane something tells me this route is "too dangerous" for mass participation, but i guess calling attention to the danger is part of the issue? if only we could protest safely we wouldn't have to protest.
_________________ -Kevin
gsbarnes
Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:24 pm
Joined: 15 Aug 2006Posts: 2666Location: No Fun Town, USA
joby wrote:
can haz bikepath?
Hypothetically, if I were to suggest a course of action, I'd suggest a DIY bike path from the sidewalk to the staircase landing (there is one, right?) down to the street below.
I don't know if that's feasible on this slope, or you need some minor or major grading. But the kids here at the UW make such paths all the time. All you have to do is provide a halfway-decent route (no trees, no fences, no blackberry bushes, etc.).
_________________ I have always thought in the back of my mind: Cheese and Onions
goes to elevenJoined: 25 Jul 2005Posts: 3899Location: The Cloud
gsbarnes wrote:
joby wrote:
can haz bikepath?
Hypothetically, if I were to suggest a course of action, I'd suggest a DIY bike path from the sidewalk to the staircase landing (there is one, right?) down to the street below.
I don't know if that's feasible on this slope, or you need some minor or major grading. But the kids here at the UW make such paths all the time. All you have to do is provide a halfway-decent route (no trees, no fences, no blackberry bushes, etc.).
The problem with the allignment in my picture is that it crosses and existing stairway at about 90 degrees. It would have to be a much steeper descent to not interfere with the stairs.
DJStroky
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:51 am
Joined: 25 May 2007Posts: 356Location: Downtown Tacoma
Point 83: Armed with the MUTCD and whiskey!
Snyder: Yeah you're probably right about SDOT sending off the study of Stone Way to some consulting firm, who could for all we know not be up to par with the latest information in the MUTCD, or the understanding that Stone Way is really important to bicyclers.
Abamfici: You've got me thinking if it would be possible to model a bike lane in VISSIM. That would be interesting to see if it is possible.
Teh Jobies: Do you really need the stairs, when this alignment could be made?
_________________ Tacoma isn't that bad... well maybe it is
joby
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:54 am
goes to elevenJoined: 25 Jul 2005Posts: 3899Location: The Cloud
DJStroky wrote:
Teh Jobies: Do you really need the stairs, when this alignment could be made?
not at all! Your diagram is exactly what I'd like to see.
I was saying that "informal" path construction would be difficult because of the stairs.
DJStroky
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:17 am
Joined: 25 May 2007Posts: 356Location: Downtown Tacoma
Actually, that merge back onto 15th crosses a pretty busy onramp, maybe this would be better, plus it would align with the ship canal trail.
EDIT: Actually, if I'm not mistaken the Bicycle Master Plan recommends building a new Ballard Bridge for bicycles and pedestrians. Appendix I #49
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lantius
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:32 am
1337Joined: 22 Jul 2005Posts: 6705Location: right over
even if they build a new ballard bridge for pedestrians and cyclists, is that a good reason to leave the current bridge in it's current unusable state? there are few enough crossings over the ship canal as it is.
joby
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:35 am
goes to elevenJoined: 25 Jul 2005Posts: 3899Location: The Cloud
DJStroky wrote:
Actually, that merge back onto 15th crosses a pretty busy onramp, maybe this would be better, plus it would align with the ship canal trail.
EDIT: Actually, if I'm not mistaken the Bicycle Master Plan recommends building a new Ballard Bridge for bicycles and pedestrians. Appendix I #49
this diagram confuses me. You've switched to blue for the bike path? you have the bike path merging on to the ramp to go through the underpass?
langston
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:29 pm
Joined: 25 Jul 2005Posts: 5547Location: Columbia City
DJStroky wrote:
Actually, that merge back onto 15th crosses a pretty busy onramp, maybe this would be better, plus it would align with the ship canal trail.
EDIT: Actually, if I'm not mistaken the Bicycle Master Plan recommends building a new Ballard Bridge for bicycles and pedestrians. Appendix I #49
Looking one more step out, you could take bikes off 15th, from both directions, altogether. After the northbound merge, keep going through the grass and it puts you back on Thorndyke. I don't have cute mapping software and gmap.pedometer is tweaking out on me where I can't save the route.
gsbarnes
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:17 pm
Joined: 15 Aug 2006Posts: 2666Location: No Fun Town, USA
What I was getting at is: if you were on a suitably equipped bike, could you right now veer diagonally off the bridge sidewalk, cross the staircase at the landing (where from your picture there appears to be a gap in the stair railing), then continue diagonally down to the street/onramp below without killing yourself?
Obviously, this is not an ideal solution, but if enough people take it, there will be a path there and even more people would take it. And one could 'improve' it from there with gravel, railroad ties, warning signs, whatever. Hopefully before it gets to that you could convince the DOT to bring out the Bobcat and the pavers.
DJStroky's lines seem to start from a place on the sidewalk that has air below it (as the street/onramp is directly below it), and obviously you couldn't travel it right now. If I were king of the DOT, I'd start building a ramp thereabouts (that was my original suggestion), but I'm wondering what a single person with a mountain bike could do right now.
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joby
Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:36 pm
goes to elevenJoined: 25 Jul 2005Posts: 3899Location: The Cloud
gsbarnes wrote:
What I was getting at is: if you were on a suitably equipped bike, could you right now veer diagonally off the bridge sidewalk, cross the staircase at the landing (where from your picture there appears to be a gap in the stair railing), then continue diagonally down to the street/onramp below without killing yourself?
Obviously, this is not an ideal solution, but if enough people take it, there will be a path there and even more people would take it. And one could 'improve' it from there with gravel, railroad ties, warning signs, whatever. Hopefully before it gets to that you could convince the DOT to bring out the Bobcat and the pavers.
DJStroky's lines seem to start from a place on the sidewalk that has air below it (as the street/onramp is directly below it), and obviously you couldn't travel it right now. If I were king of the DOT, I'd start building a ramp thereabouts (that was my original suggestion), but I'm wondering what a single person with a mountain bike could do right now.
I walked back down. Sadly there is a retaining wall made of broken sidewalk at the end of the hill (covered in groundcover in my picture).
I also took some measurements. A perfectly graded trail from the edge of the bridge to the bottom of the stairway would have a 17% grade. I guess that could be ok for only going down hill....
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