could suck the fun out of a blowjobJoined: 23 Jul 2007Posts: 588Location: Ballard / Fremont
Late breaking change to the SBAB schedule - This wednesday Ethan Melone, the project manager for the SLUT, will be presenting information about the Streetcar System to the Bicycle Advisory Board....which is a public meeting.
Seattle Bicycle Advisory Board
Meeting Agenda
Wednesday, April 2, 2008, 6-8pm
Seattle City Hall (600 4th Ave), Room L280
6:00 – 6:10 Call to Order
Around the Room Introductions and Board Member Announcements
Public Comment
Review and approval of March meeting minutes (distributed previously via email)
6:10 – 6:35 Seattle Parks Department – David Graves
6:35 – 6:50 Seattle Streetcar System – Ethan Melone
6:50 – 7:15 SDOT Announcements – Pete Lagerwey, Monica DeWald
7:15 – 7:30 SBAB Communication Standards – Sean Ardussi
7:30 – 7:55 Committee Updates
• Outreach Committee (Ryan, Deborah, Brian D, Naomi)
Bike Expo Recap
Pedestrian Advisory Board (Howard Brian L, Dongho)
Cascade Education
Update of 5 Guiding Principles as Homepage (Ryan, Deborah)
Other
• Policy Committee (Sean, Ryan, Jeff, Dongho, John, Rodney, Brian L)
Bridging the Gap Oversight Committee (Dongho, Jeff – alternate)
Plan Review Proposal – Jeff – 10 Minutes
Complete Streets (Dongho, Jeffrey, Sean)
Master Plan Implementation and Monitoring (group yet to form -possibly linked with Jeff’s “Plan Review” work? John, Jeff, others?)
New groups (S. Lk Union Trail)
• Admin Committee (John , Rodney, Evan, Sean)
7:55 – 8:00 Closing thoughts
Other unfinished business?
Opportunities?
8:00 Meeting adjourned
Next Meeting May 7, 2008
lantius
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:12 am
1337Joined: 22 Jul 2005Posts: 6705Location: right over
does punching somebody in the face for fucking up the slut come under "unfinished business"?
the dreaded ben
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:36 am
Grumpy GreebJoined: 20 Aug 2005Posts: 5329Location: flavor country
lantius wrote:
does punching somebody in the face for fucking up the slut come under "unfinished business"?
hels yeeeeay! wax sum g mix upin that mothafucka's grille.
ksep
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:53 am
Joined: 27 Jan 2007Posts: 1879Location: Westlake
I'm going to try really hard to show up for this one. Hopefully debunk, as Joby pointed out, the myth that streetcar tracks show businesses that the city has a serious commitment to the area. You know, like the Myrtle Edwards streetcar.
No streetcars in Tokyo! Pics are still downloading from camera... soon...
_________________ -Kevin
Razi
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:03 pm
Joined: 16 Dec 2005Posts: 866Location: Seattle
Was Ethan Melone "THE" project manager? The project manager of "blue marker showing the most fucktarded way ever for cyclists to avoid the tracks" fame?
could suck the fun out of a blowjobJoined: 23 Jul 2007Posts: 588Location: Ballard / Fremont
Razi wrote:
Was Ethan Melone "THE" project manager? The project manager of "blue marker showing the most fucktarded way ever for cyclists to avoid the tracks" fame?
Not sure about the "blue marker fame", but my understanding is that he was the primary (only?) project manager of the SLUT and that he wanted to ban cyclists from westlake.
...I just wish my FOIA results for the SDOT presentation that listed 4 pages of cycling problems with the westlake streetcar alignment.
snyd3282
Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:53 pm
could suck the fun out of a blowjobJoined: 23 Jul 2007Posts: 588Location: Ballard / Fremont
bump - this thing happens in 4 hours.
Reminder - The doors lock at 6pm, so be early (or PM me and I'll give you my cell #). There is bike parking near the entrance on the east side of the building.
DJStroky
Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:10 pm
Joined: 25 May 2007Posts: 356Location: Downtown Tacoma
They paved over the Waterfront Streetcar Tracks for the bike path! Bikers are taking over this city!
_________________ Tacoma isn't that bad... well maybe it is
TrikerTrev
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:15 am
Joined: 23 Oct 2006Posts: 2303Location: FOCO, MOFO!!!
Ethan is a jackass. I'm now anti-streetcar in addition to pro-bike.
His slides had a bullet point goal to "share street space successfully with bikes." And then he started making straw man arguments about why the SLUT can't and has to run in the right lane to preserve parking.
To answer his straw man, I guess he forgot that running in the right lane takes away parking spaces for the stations and for the light poles.
The SBAB has good intentions but is weak in the mind. They think it's a good idea to paint the death bike lane on 2nd green instead of moving it to the right side of the road when the have the opportunity during the pre-Viaduct teardown repave. Why? "Because the buses run on the right." That's bullshit, i ride in the right lane to work down 2nd ever day without problems.
SBAB also wasn't calling Ethan on the myth of parallel routes. The swoopy narrow alley that is Yale Terrace E and Fairview are not acceptable parallel routes to Eastlake.
SBAB also seems suckered into to thinking streetcar tracks are unidirectional and the technology know as "back in angle parking" doesn't exist.
Finally, the first expansion rolling up to the UDistrict when there will be actual rapid transit via the light rail tunnel to the same area seems stupid.
_________________ -Kevin
DOUG.
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:30 am
Joined: 29 Jan 2007Posts: 117Location: Wallingford
Ethan's a tool of the Nickels regime. I can't believe he'd actually show up with such a crap-ass "presentation" as that. I think he had 3 slides that were even slightly relevant to bike issues. And don't even get me started with the visuals -- black serifed text on a PMS 194 background? It's almost like they don't want us to even be able to READ their presentation. Hmmmm....
And it was pretty obvious where Ethan thinks cyclists rate in the driving, parking, streetcarring hierarchy: We are dead last. Dead. Last.
Granted, streetcar extensions are all in the concept stage right now, but I know the Eastlake Avenue route to UW is the one they are eyeing next. Not only will there be transportation redundancy on that route (numerous express buses, local buses and Sound Transit in 2016 or so), there is no way to configure Eastlake for streetcar tracks without eliminating a traffic lane, on-street parking or space for bikes. Something will have to give.
Keep an eye on the Nickels yokels. They didn't do crap to mitigate for bicyclists when laying down the SLUT, and without vigilance and attitude, they'll keep on pushing the Little Train That Can't down our collective pieholes.
snyd3282
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:18 am
could suck the fun out of a blowjobJoined: 23 Jul 2007Posts: 588Location: Ballard / Fremont
Thank you to Kevin and Doug for showing up! I know it is painful to attend those meetings, but we needed other voices in the room. Most of time SDOT shows up with some information that is new and not avaialable elsewhere, like their plan for green paint in conflict points on the 2nd ave death lane.
SBAB varies a lot. Sometimes the board members are really knowledgable and are forceful, other times they don't have enough information to even know what to suggest and they go with the flow of whatever SDOT suggests.
And on the subject of the streetcar "network", Transportation Choices Coalition has a forum tomorrow (and TCC has bought in to supporting the streetcar). If anyone is in the area and has time, it might be another place that could use people speaking up.
FRIDAY FORUM: Seattle Streetcar Network - A Peek into the Future
The South Lake Union Streetcar line opened with great fanfare in December of 2007. Now the Mayor and City Council are working on a plan to expand streetcars throughout Seattle. Catch a sneak preview of this plan (which won't be public until May) and hear answers to questions like: Which neighborhoods are on the list for possible new streetcar lines? How would a new system be financed? What would new streetcars look like? How's the existing streetcar doing anyway? Could streetcars be part of a local solution to help slow global warming? Ethan Melone from the Seattle Department of Transportation will be on hand to answer all these questions and more.
WHAT: Seattle Streetcar Network: A Peek into the Future with Ethan Melone from the Seattle Department of Transportation
WHEN: Friday April 4, 12:00pm - 1:30pm
WHERE: Seattle and King County Public Health Building, 401 5th Ave., Room 115 (first floor)
coupdegrace
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:59 am
Joined: 01 Nov 2006Posts: 168
abamfici wrote:
They think it's a good idea to paint the death bike lane on 2nd green instead of moving it to the right side of the road ... Why? "Because the buses run on the right." .... i ride in the right lane ... down 2nd ever day without problems.
Paint is cheap! It will keep you safe won't it? Or is it you that keeps you safe?
No paint is a no cost option that you apparently exercise everyday.
Just remove the bike lane on 2nd and if there is paint in the budget and they have to spend the money, paint sharrows in the middle of every lane on 2nd.
No wait! Paint sharrows in the middle of every street in Seattle.
lantius
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:24 am
1337Joined: 22 Jul 2005Posts: 6705Location: right over
why do the buses run down the right side of 2nd ave? because the left side has too many conflicts.
the green lane on 2nd will help exactly nothing.
coupdegrace
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:34 am
Joined: 01 Nov 2006Posts: 168
lantius wrote:
the green lane on 2nd will help exactly nothing.
A green bike lane on 2nd or anywhere, will encourage inexperienced, unskilled, unsuspecting, unknowing cyclists to ride in it. And will further enforce the belief and expectation by motorists that cyclists are required to ride in it.
A green bike lane will help increase bike/car conflict.
could suck the fun out of a blowjobJoined: 23 Jul 2007Posts: 588Location: Ballard / Fremont
lantius wrote:
why do the buses run down the right side of 2nd ave? because the left side has too many conflicts.
the green lane on 2nd will help exactly nothing.
Buses use the right lane because they have stops on the right side and their doors are on the right side. Right?
I share the concern that green lanes will encourage more people to ride in that left hand bike lane that puts them in increased danger of being hit in a left hook. The only question is if it will make drivers any more cautious...but to do that I think it needs a lot more PR than we have seen with the sharrows.
coupdegrace
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:24 pm
Joined: 01 Nov 2006Posts: 168
snyd3282 wrote:
The ...question is if a green bike lane will make drivers ...more cautious.
I'm not going to take that chance. When I ride my safety is my responsibility and I will not relinquish that responsibility to anyone else and especially not to motorists even if laws are written that require me to ride in a bike lane.
My point regarding painting sharrows in the middle on every street in Seattle is that even though they are not present they do according to the law exist. Every cyclist has the right to us as much of the roadway as is necessary for safe travel without being rundown or runoff the road by motorists. Unfortunately in this country motorists have been allowed to get away with this "I own the road" behavior and have convinced the cycling community that they need dangerous space on the side of the road out of motorists way to ride bicycles indicated by a painted stripe or green lane.
Go back to SBAB and tell them to remove the f**king bike lane on 2nd. I really resent being yelled at by rednecks in big trucks to ride in the f**king bike lane because pussy (CBC) bike riders want them and so fat politicians who don't know f**k about riding a bike provide them.
Rant OUT!
Razi
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:26 pm
Joined: 16 Dec 2005Posts: 866Location: Seattle
Even if it makes 70% of drivers more cautious, there is still no way in hell I am risking getting hooked (or doored for that matter) by the other 30%. I ride the center and have never had a problem on 2nd.
I'm reading through Bob Minoske's "Cycling and the Law", the passage I read this morning talked about getting doored...
He quotes a study done in Ann Arbor MI, where over some time period 19 such incidents were reported. 11 were fatal, either because of the kinetic energy dissipated into the cyclist, or because the impact threw the rider into the traffic to the left they were hugging the parked cars to avoid.
Screw bike lanes, sharrows and green paint. The streetcar drivers yesterday proved they are careless. The parked cars will kill you without a second thought. It's time to adopt segregated lanes such as those you can find throughout Benelux and Scandinavia.
coupdegrace
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:15 pm
Joined: 01 Nov 2006Posts: 168
Segregationists are utopian wimps. Grow up. Take responsibility for your own safety. Learn how to ride your bike. Make our government enforce the laws and make violators accountable and punish killers.
No paint No Seperate spaces. Same roads Same rules.
Matt do you bust 20+ on sunny Sunday afternoons on the BGT on your fancy bike in your pretty squid kit? You make me want to puke! You and 7000+ CBC clueless fucks.
snyd3282
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:29 pm
could suck the fun out of a blowjobJoined: 23 Jul 2007Posts: 588Location: Ballard / Fremont
coupdegrace wrote:
snyd3282 wrote:
The ...question is if a green bike lane will make drivers ...more cautious.
Go back to SBAB and tell them to remove the f**king bike lane on 2nd. I really resent being yelled at by rednecks in big trucks to ride in the f**king bike lane because pussy (CBC) bike riders want them and so fat politicians who don't know f**k about riding a bike provide them.
Rant OUT!
Unfortunately I lost my cool a few weeks ago and lost the position that I was about to be given on the SBAB...I was appointed but unconfirmed to the board for a few weeks. I give what advice I am able, and frankly I think this is a risky experiment and a risky place to experiment, but I can't twist their arm into anything. They frequently bend to SDOT's suggestions, but on this they are discussing alternatives with SDOT. It isn't a done deal, but the odds are good that SDOT is going to do this experiment.
I have already voiced most of the same concerns that you pointed out. ...but the BMP didn't call for removal of bad bike lanes, just to add more bike lanes, so the argument needs to be made with the city council and mayor to get their buy-in first.
[edit]
Forgot to mention that SDOT is selling this to SBAB under the idea that it is just a temporary experiment and will all go away when the viaduct comes down. That makes it even easier for SBAB to go along with ... but that seems like another roll of the dice to me.
[/edit]
DJStroky
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:21 am
Joined: 25 May 2007Posts: 356Location: Downtown Tacoma
abamfici wrote:
His slides had a bullet point goal to "share street space successfully with bikes." And then he started making straw man arguments about why the SLUT can't and has to run in the right lane to preserve parking.
snyd3282 wrote:
the odds are good that SDOT is going to do this experiment.
Everyone needs to call him out on this shit. He is being completely contradictory when he says this. We have told SDOT over and over that bicyclist don't want a right lane configuration.
This whole Eastlake route will be all about whose wheel is squeekier: bikers who travel through Eastlake or people who want to park their cars in parking spots on Eastlake. Be sure to send SDOT as much complaints as you can during the public comment period against a right-lane configuration.
Not true. Streetcars are localized transportation modes - they are very good for neighborhoodish transport but not regional. The Light Rail will not stop in Eastlake at all - it is a regional system separate from the streetcar. Also, metro planners will probably shift transit service away from Eastlake as long as there is a streetcar running there.
I also should point out that the Eastlake neighborhood is currently part of the only 7-days-a-week; 20-hours-a-day; 15-minute-headway; transit service in the entire state of Washington. Transit service in Eastlake should make up for any lost parking spaces, especially if the parking spaces are displaced by a sexy streetcar.
advanced bicyclists wrote:
2nd ave green paint means nothing
I agree completely. My adviser told me that some student did a thesis on pedestrian crossings and found that people crossing the road at painted crosswalks at unsignalized intersections had higher injuries and fatalities than jaywalkers did. You bikers may notice the green paint, but unless there are a hundred bikers using the green paint (like there are in Denmark), it's unlikely that the other three lanes of car traffic will notice or give a crap.
_________________ Tacoma isn't that bad... well maybe it is
Segregationists are utopian wimps. Grow up. Take responsibility for your own safety. Learn how to ride your bike. Make our government enforce the laws and make violators accountable and punish killers.
No paint No Seperate spaces. Same roads Same rules.
I would agree with you, except for the fact that there is a sizeable contingent of people who are so clueless, so dangerous that the only thing keeping me safe is that the probablistic event of me being on the same road as they are hasn't happened yet.
Enforcing laws and punishing killers doesn't bring the cyclist back. In fact, to admit that there are bicycle killers out there implies that no amount of skill, maneuverability, or excess wattage for acceleration could have saved at least a fraction of accident victims.
When I was a postgrad in Charleston, SC, one of my instructors, and a good riding partner by the name of Garrett Wonders was out on a training ride. He had gone from Cat 5 to Pro 1/2 in three years. Probably one of the most talented cyclists I knew. He "knew how to ride a bike" as you'd say, and could do it well.
And the only reason they found him dead on the side of the road was because his wife figured he was late to dinner over a flat or a broken chain and decided to check on his favorite ride route.
The pickup driver was prosecuted successfully (based on a handful of witnesses who came forward after his widow put out TV adverts asking for clues), a bike defence fund was created to protect other riders and a major television campaign advertising that the police were looking for reckless drivers was launched from the settlement.
But he's still dead, and even though Charleston's riders are some of the most acutely aware, perhaps paranoid riders you ever meet, Charleston remains one of the most dangerous cities to ride in the US, mostly due to the fact that the auto drivers in the area are also nationally one of the most feckless statistically speaking.
Quote:
Matt do you bust 20+ on sunny Sunday afternoons on the BGT on your fancy bike in your pretty squid kit? You make me want to puke! You and 7000+ CBC clueless fucks.
I'm really taken aback by this. I don't know if it's because you think I'm a sunny weather only rider (if so, why'd I leave the South for here?), because you think I'm a "clueless fuck", or because you think I wear a "pretty squid kit" for anything other than racing. I'd demand an apology, but I'm guessing you're incapable of such a thing.
snyd3282
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:38 am
could suck the fun out of a blowjobJoined: 23 Jul 2007Posts: 588Location: Ballard / Fremont
DJStroky wrote:
snyd3282 wrote:
the odds are good that SDOT is going to do this experiment.
Everyone needs to call him out on this shit. He is being completely contradictory when he says this. We have told SDOT over and over that bicyclist don't want a right lane configuration.
Just to be clear here, the streetcar is Ethan Melone, but the 2nd Ave green boxes are somewhere within SDOT Ped & Bike. Pete Lagerway presented it, but I get the feeling that sometimes he just has to go along with the party line.
There are the Ped & Bike folks, four layers of management, Director Cruinican, and then the city council and mayor. It isn't always clear where things are coming from, or at least I'm still frequently unsure of where things are coming from.
For the streetcar at least, the ball is headed toward the city council's court. The best thing we can do now is keep talking to city council members and get them to understand that if they support poorly done streetcars they will be alienating bicyclists and creating bad publicity for themselves.
DJStroky wrote:
advanced bicyclists wrote:
2nd ave green paint means nothing
I agree completely. My adviser told me that some student did a thesis on pedestrian crossings and found that people crossing the road at painted crosswalks at unsignalized intersections had higher injuries and fatalities than jaywalkers did. You bikers may notice the green paint, but unless there are a hundred bikers using the green paint (like there are in Denmark), it's unlikely that the other three lanes of car traffic will notice or give a crap.
Well, it means something, but not to the right people. Paint gives a set of people an expectation that they can be expected, as a result they let their guard down.
How many people have you seen step into a painted crosswalk without bothering to look to see if there is any oncoming traffic?
How often have you seen jaywalkers do that?
Stanglor
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:25 am
Joined: 28 Jan 2006Posts: 555Location: Wallingford
Matthew wrote:
Quote:
Matt do you bust 20+ on sunny Sunday afternoons on the BGT on your fancy bike in your pretty squid kit? You make me want to puke! You and 7000+ CBC clueless fucks.
I'm really taken aback by this. I don't know if it's because you think I'm a sunny weather only rider (if so, why'd I leave the South for here?), because you think I'm a "clueless fuck", or because you think I wear a "pretty squid kit" for anything other than racing. I'd demand an apology, but I'm guessing you're incapable of such a thing.
Matthew, what you don't seem to understand is that wearing lycra automatically makes you one of 'Teh Gays.' Now what coupdegrace and Charleston SC drivers understand is that by wearing lycra (and turning yourself into one of Teh Gays) you forfeit both any claim to the power of reasonable thought and your right to life.
</Sarcasm>
I know that it's the interwebs, and the interwebs are serious businees, but whining and making fun of someone for wearing spandex? Haven't we outgrown that just a little bit?
I agree that anyone who routinely rides a bike should know how to ride safely in traffic, but are you seriously arguing that there shouldn't be any bike paths anywhere?!? Me thinks your angry response needs a bit more thought.
Feel free to try again without name calling and. with a little more thought.
_________________ Confidential to everybody: "Pearl necklace" is out. "Cheney" is in. Pass it on.
lantius
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:29 am
1337Joined: 22 Jul 2005Posts: 6705Location: right over
coupdegrace wrote:
Segregationists are utopian wimps. Grow up. Take responsibility for your own safety. Learn how to ride your bike. Make our government enforce the laws and make violators accountable and punish killers.
No paint No Seperate spaces. Same roads Same rules.
as i've pointed out so far, that's worked really well for cars. they share the same roads, same rules, and end up dying by the tens of thousands every year.
and those fuckers have airbags.
the dreaded ben
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:10 am
Grumpy GreebJoined: 20 Aug 2005Posts: 5329Location: flavor country
this thread has too many words.
lantius
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:18 am
1337Joined: 22 Jul 2005Posts: 6705Location: right over
the dreaded ben wrote:
this thread has too many words.
like you've got anything better to do than read them.
Stanglor
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:57 am
Joined: 28 Jan 2006Posts: 555Location: Wallingford
lantius wrote:
the dreaded ben wrote:
this thread has too many words.
like you've got anything better to do than read them.
It's funny cause he's got nine toes.
Haha. Ben's Gimpy.
_________________ Confidential to everybody: "Pearl necklace" is out. "Cheney" is in. Pass it on.
coupdegrace
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:01 am
Joined: 01 Nov 2006Posts: 168
Matthew wrote:
Quote:
Matt do you bust 20+ on sunny Sunday afternoons on the BGT on your fancy bike in your pretty squid kit? You make me want to puke! You and 7000+ CBC clueless fucks.
I'm really taken aback by this. I don't know if it's because you think I'm a sunny weather only rider (if so, why'd I leave the South for here?), because you think I'm a "clueless fuck", or because you think I wear a "pretty squid kit" for anything other than racing. I'd demand an apology, but I'm guessing you're incapable of such a thing.
Matt,
I am sorry for your loss. I have lost my father and best highschool friend to killer cars, they are gone forever.
However I will not apologize to you or any other person who calls themself a cyclist or rides a bike and has been convinced by the bullying tactics of the motoring public that our roads are for motorized vehicles only and call out to our government to provide seperate facilites for cyclists. Seperate facilities that are completely without conflict with our existing roads is a utopian dream and a impossible un-reality, especially if our government is expected to provide and install them - i.e. this thread. Retreating to a supposedly 'safe' place is a defeatist attitude that completely avoids the issue of requiring that riders and drivers operate their vehicles in a safe manner. Safety is not something that can be painted on the road or provided in a utopian system of conflictless bike/ped trails. The concept of a bike/ped trail system that is without conflicts is in itself a physical impossibility, at some point it must interface with the existing roads system and by definition of intersection there will be conflict at those interfaces.
Safety occurs in your mind. Safety is understanding the gravity of the consequences of our actions and acting responsibly and accordingly to be safe and provide others with the safety that is their right. Can we achieve absolute safety, no it is also not possible unless you quit riding and driving. Avoiding or retreating from this issue is also not possible and attempting to is cowardice.
When motorists say that they do not want cyclists on our roads what they are really saying is that they don't want to be safe, and because they have not been held accountable for their unsafe actions they have convinced a large population of people who ride bikes for recreation and drive cars too, that they do not want to ride bikes on our roads.
When I say learn to ride your bike I am not refering a to the physical skill, I am refering to the mental understanding of where to ride on our roads that place you in predictable positions where you are expected and can been seen, without riding into dangerous conflict with other vehicles be they motorized or human powered. Will riding in this manner gaurantee that no one will ever be injured or killed again while riding a bike on our roads? Absolutely not but it will give you a much better chance of avoiding death and injury than riding in a bike lane, green or any other color.
Learning to ride our bikes safely and requiring our government to enforce the law and require motorists to operate their vehicles safely with all users that have a right to use our roads is our best REAL opportunity to create that utopian society where we all can get along together.
Now have I changed your mind? Probably not, but I feel better. Last night I chose to be offensive to you because your lack of understanding or stupidity is offensive to me. No apology forthcoming and I do have the ability to apologize. Do you have the ability to understand reality?
lantius
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:19 am
1337Joined: 22 Jul 2005Posts: 6705Location: right over
yeah, no separate facilities for anyone!
fill in the bus tunnel! tear down the interstate! fuck the sidewalks! move the light rail tracks out into the lane! let god sort 'em out.
oh wait, could it be that separate facilities can be part of a comprehensive transportation system at crucial points?
dennis is of the opinion that car drivers are better people than they actually are, and cyclists are worse. when in doubt, blame the victim. they had it coming.
segregated bike facilities aren't fictional, they exist in a maaagical land called holland. or the netherlands. or whatever. drivers obeying the law and not running into people? i call bullshit on that imaginary utopia. you keep dreaming of the day when people with 400hp under their big toe will go 25mph and look over their shoulder before they careen around corners, and i'll be over here trying to figure out real solutions.
coupdegrace
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:21 am
Joined: 01 Nov 2006Posts: 168
Stanglor wrote:
... but are you seriously arguing that there shouldn't be any bike paths anywhere?!?
No, I do have the ability to understand reality. Recreational paths do exist and they are a great cultural enhacement and every urban area needs them and yes I enjoy riding on them too.
I do not think that bike lanes or the Danish style Transportational paths can be made safe - too many conflicts at intersections and at too a great a cost to install in the exisiting infra-structure and thus the lack of political will. In my opinion the money would be better spent educating and enforcing safe driving and riding practices.
The whiskey was good last night.
coupdegrace
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:45 am
Joined: 01 Nov 2006Posts: 168
lantius wrote:
dennis is of the opinion that car drivers are better people than they actually are, and cyclists are worse. when in doubt, blame the victim. they had it coming.
Lee, Why do you think I think this? Is it because I think that if cyclists didn't ride in bike lanes or too near to the right or left edge of the roadway that they would not be right or left hooked.
lantius
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:00 am
1337Joined: 22 Jul 2005Posts: 6705Location: right over
coupdegrace wrote:
lantius wrote:
dennis is of the opinion that car drivers are better people than they actually are, and cyclists are worse. when in doubt, blame the victim. they had it coming.
Lee, Why do you think I think this? Is it because I think that if cyclists didn't ride in bike lanes or too near to the right or left edge of the roadway that they would not be right or left hooked.
except i got left hooked riding in the middle of the left lane, by a guy who took a left turn from the right lane.
think all you want. your plan seems to fully depend on people learning how to drive cars correctly. i think that's a fucking huge assumption, and one not yet shown true (as near as i can tell) anywhere on god's green earth.
ethan
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:18 pm
Joined: 21 Jan 2008Posts: 920Location: Maple Leaf
((shaking head)) You guys are all a bunch of meanies… I thot I was gonna like this site but now I’m gonna go find another road biker forum to post on.
Heh. Just kidding.
Oh and, before I go on … nope, my last name ain’t Melone.
Anyway um… I’m kind of out of the loop lately with regards to bike commuting, since for the last 3.5 years my commute has been West Seattle to Federal Way (I’ve biked it but only about ten times so far … shit, you think *Seattle* drivers suck, try White Center, Des Moines, etc etc … sheesh.)
However. Sooner or later, if the fates allow, I hope to find a job as awesome as my current one in the city of Seattle and bike to work more. So, I’d totally like to help out in some way shape or form with all this advocacy stuff. Not sure how soon I’ll be coming to any of these public meetings, but if you got any canned letters you got for me to send, and tell me who to send ‘em to, I’d be more than happy to. And yes, I am too lazy to write my own letter... I'm a "car person", remember? ;)
-the other Ethan
snyd3282
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:04 pm
could suck the fun out of a blowjobJoined: 23 Jul 2007Posts: 588Location: Ballard / Fremont
ethan wrote:
So, I’d totally like to help out in some way shape or form with all this advocacy stuff. Not sure how soon I’ll be coming to any of these public meetings, but if you got any canned letters you got for me to send, and tell me who to send ‘em to, I’d be more than happy to. And yes, I am too lazy to write my own letter... I'm a "car person", remember? ;)
-the other Ethan
Keep an eye on www.SeattleLikesBikes.org, or the forums here. When we have something specific that needs sayin in bulk, the word will go out.
This whole Eastlake route will be all about whose wheel is squeekier: bikers who travel through Eastlake or people who want to park their cars in parking spots on Eastlake.
...
I also should point out that the Eastlake neighborhood is currently part of the only 7-days-a-week; 20-hours-a-day; 15-minute-headway; transit service in the entire state of Washington. Transit service in Eastlake should make up for any lost parking spaces, especially if the parking spaces are displaced by a sexy streetcar.
Nailed it! Thanks for the perspective, Evan. We really need to rally so they don't break Eastlake.
_________________ -Kevin
john
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:25 pm
AAAARRRRRGGGGbllll pppphtt!Joined: 26 Aug 2006Posts: 725Location: In the lab.
abamfici wrote:
DJStroky wrote:
This whole Eastlake route will be all about whose wheel is squeekier: bikers who travel through Eastlake or people who want to park their cars in parking spots on Eastlake.
...
I also should point out that the Eastlake neighborhood is currently part of the only 7-days-a-week; 20-hours-a-day; 15-minute-headway; transit service in the entire state of Washington. Transit service in Eastlake should make up for any lost parking spaces, especially if the parking spaces are displaced by a sexy streetcar.
Nailed it! Thanks for the perspective, Evan. We really need to rally so they don't break Eastlake.
Totally. I mean.... why are they putting something on eastlake that is just going to decrease the effectiveness of pretty decent transit? Eastlakes fine...
WTF is up with having a streetcar.... for some reason streetcars make politicians feel warm and fuzzy, but.... I think.... they are the slowest form of surface transit...
It scares me that the people who are designing/promoting/implementing this... don't realize they can... well.... just take the fucking bus! Or if they want to get there quicker... ride a FUCKING BIKE!
argh!
_________________ In der Not frisst der Teufel Fliegen.
could suck the fun out of a blowjobJoined: 23 Jul 2007Posts: 588Location: Ballard / Fremont
john wrote:
It scares me that the people who are designing/promoting/implementing this... don't realize they can... well.... just take the fucking bus! Or if they want to get there quicker... ride a FUCKING BIKE!
argh!
Has anyone compared the commute challenge #s with the # of employees in SDOT? I don't have many data points, but it seems that people are pretty isolated in their own little worlds. I was trying to convince a SDOT bike person to try taking the bus...someone who hadn't ever ridden the bus.
I get the feeling that the people behind the streetcar don't ever get out of thier cars and are scared of the people on the bus and afraid of bicycling. If your only experience is with a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail.
...then again, I'm a huge proponent of getting as many experiences and perspectives as you can. In software development, I like it when the developers go out on sales calls once in a while and sit in on tech support calls once in a while.
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