daywalkerJoined: 09 Nov 2007Posts: 6108Location: Hatertown
discuss
_________________ GREAT UNITER / ORACLE / ELDER
MOOAAR DONGS
lantius
Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:51 pm
1337Joined: 22 Jul 2005Posts: 6705Location: right over
evilmike does!
my take is that they're great for medium-height dudes. i can get bikes with 700x35-40 tires (hello lht) with basically zero compromises to geometry. smaller dudes can get very fine bicycles with 26"x1.75-1.95" tires that look like normal bikes. medium-height dudes are in kind of an awkward position in the middle there, and 650b steps right into the gap between 559 and 622 erds.
they're also great for conversions. 584mm erd + 40mm tire is roughly the same radius as a 622mm erd + 20mm tire. so if your frame fits 700x28's, you can likely go down to 650bx40 with room for fenders.
the disadvantage is that your choices in tires and rims are limited, and using them makes you a giant bike nerd. but that's pretty much everybody here.
oh also beau thinks they're stupid, but thinks 650c (571mm) makes sense. i think that makes him a secret triathlete.
tehschkott
Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:58 pm
daywalkerJoined: 09 Nov 2007Posts: 6108Location: Hatertown
lantius wrote:
oh also beau thinks they're stupid, but thinks 650c (571mm) makes sense. i think that makes him a secret triathlete.
Fightin words!
/scratches head. Hey, I'm a medium sized feller...
_________________ GREAT UNITER / ORACLE / ELDER
MOOAAR DONGS
jimmythefly
Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:01 pm
Joined: 10 Jan 2007Posts: 1491
lantius wrote:
they're also great for conversions. 584mm erd + 40mm tire is roughly the same radius as a 622mm erd + 20mm tire. so if your frame fits 700x28's, you can likely go down to 650bx40 with room for fenders.
They were the answer to the question: "How do I build my wife a nice 531 non-O/S tubed bike that'll take 32mm tires and fenders? Oh, and must be built on the cheap-ish."
There are quite a few very nice old steel race bikes out there in 48-52cm sizes that have relatively nice tube sets, (and they're much cheaper than the old steel touring bikes with nice tube sets). 650b is the way to give them fatter tires with fenders.
I don't have any personal bikes with them, though. I may someday try to borrow/build a wheelset for my Traitor if I really feel like I need a set of Hetres, but until then 700x35 is just fine.
derrickito
Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:03 pm
now with 50 percent more EVILJoined: 22 Jul 2005Posts: 10566
im a medium.
jimmythefly
Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:04 pm
Joined: 10 Jan 2007Posts: 1491
lantius wrote:
the disadvantage is that your choices in tires and rims are limited, and using them makes you a giant bike nerd. but that's pretty much everybody here.
Also this. If I really crunched the numbers with the 650b wheelset and long-reach brakes, I'm probably not that much ahead of a nice 700c bike. But I wanted to try it.
Alex
Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:09 pm
Joined: 18 May 2006Posts: 3128Location: Roosevelt
lantius wrote:
the disadvantage is that your choices in tires and rims are limited, and using them makes you a giant bike nerd.
The choices are limited, but if you want ~37-40mm wide tires with low rolling resistance the choices are better than 559mm (26") or 622mm (700C). 700C is great up to 35mm (about what the 37mm Pasela measures).
They also make sense for mountain bikes if you want to roll bigger wheels, but don't want the super slack head tube angles that come with 29er frames on anything but extra large frames.
I have no built up 650B bikes at the moment, but two on the way.
Old Crow
Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:40 pm
Helen Keller, WHAT?Joined: 30 Sep 2005Posts: 395Location: Ballard
lantius wrote:
oh also beau thinks they're stupid, but thinks 650c (571mm) makes sense. i think that makes him a secret triathlete.
Well, here's my take on it. 650c solves a problem for the smaller ones around us as it allows them to have bikes with geometry that makes sense and handles well. I think 26" wheels would also be fine for this, but Vredestein doesn't make a 23mm wide 175psi tire full of awesome in 26". 26" wheels are the most common wheels on the planet. If you do any sort of touring, especially internationally, they make the most sense when you look at availability of replacement parts and overall strength.
Alex, Lee, and Evil Mike (we talked about this very thing the other night) make very good points about the possible usefulness of 650b. I want to wait and see if more choices become available before I recommend them to anyone. Ask anyone who has some 700d (I think that was the designation. GT tried this shit back in the 90's) wheels what it's like trying to find tires.
I am the opposite of an early adopter. Shits gotta prove useful AND available over several years before I think it's a good idea.
My gut instinct is that 650b is a fashion wheel for guys that like fat tires. There's nothing wrong with that, but it is what it is. I'm not throwing stones. I just got a pair of B43s in neon green, so I know what it's like to spend a lot of money on something just because you like it. I say have at it boys. Just don't tell me it's the second coming.
Eric_s
Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:49 pm
Joined: 07 Mar 2007Posts: 1691Location: the dirty south
you know what's fucking retarded:
650b mountain bikes.
There's one at the local bike shop, and they think it's pretty cool in that it's like a 29'er but has shorter chainstays, but it's been there for a year and no one has bought it because 650b mountain bikes are DUMB. You can get a mountain bike with shorter chainstays with a 559 ERD and skip the whole 584 ERD. I've heard they make a few of them.
Alex
Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:02 am
Joined: 18 May 2006Posts: 3128Location: Roosevelt
There are more 650B mountain bikes out there than 650B road bikes at this point. Lots of majors are making them, and there are more companies making tires too (from big but cheap guys like Kenda down to small and expensive guys like Pacenti (the actual tires are made by Panaracer)).
The current tire selection in 650B is pretty diverse, so I think Beau mostly needs to see what the staying power is before deciding if it is a stupid idea or not. I can agree with that. The 650B bike that I'm building can be converted to 700C by moving the canti posts, I'd just give up the ability to run 50mm knobby tires for fire road exploring.
tehschkott
Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:08 am
daywalkerJoined: 09 Nov 2007Posts: 6108Location: Hatertown
Hunh. The next bike I build will be around this frame and they mention it is why I ask. Course, if you run disc brakes you can run whatever size wheel you want more or less, but presumably if you're running canti's you can do both 700c and 650b on it. Figured I'd poll the house to see what the shizzy was. Frankly, given the clearance already available to a cross bike like this, the 650b detail seems a bit redundant.
_________________ GREAT UNITER / ORACLE / ELDER
MOOAAR DONGS
jimmythefly
Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:30 am
Joined: 10 Jan 2007Posts: 1491
Yeah, 700x45 plus fenders is pretty sweet! I'm a little unclear about how the rear disc caliper would adjust for wheel position in the track ends, though. Do you have parts picked out, or just the frame so far?
tehschkott
Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:43 am
daywalkerJoined: 09 Nov 2007Posts: 6108Location: Hatertown
Just the frame right now - but my Karate Monkey has disc brakes and horizontal dropouts too, so wasn't considering it a huge problem.
_________________ GREAT UNITER / ORACLE / ELDER
MOOAAR DONGS
joeball
Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:48 am
Joined: 24 Jul 2005Posts: 6037Location: Ether
jimmythefly wrote:
Yeah, 700x45 plus fenders is pretty sweet! I'm a little unclear about how the rear disc caliper would adjust for wheel position in the track ends, though. Do you have parts picked out, or just the frame so far?
Jimmy has a point, with track drop outs you want adjustable disc mounts like on the 1x1.
You could run 650B on a 1x1 if you wanted, there is a lot of room.
This whole "super versatile" selling point for bikes gets a little old for me. Frames trying to do everything, run multiple wheels sizes, single, fixed, geared, skinny tires, fat tires. I like to use frames to build up a few variations of a bike but if you know what you really want to use the bike for and you have multiple bikes then just find the frame that achieves your primary goal.
Bicycles are transportation and you pedal them where you want to go so picking the tire that you want to roll you to your destination makes sense as one of the first chainces you make about a bike. Pot hole streets, smooth velodrome, dirt roads, muddy trails....
tehschkott
Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:55 am
daywalkerJoined: 09 Nov 2007Posts: 6108Location: Hatertown
You raise a good point about the adjustable mounts. I wonder what's up with that.
_________________ GREAT UNITER / ORACLE / ELDER
MOOAAR DONGS
tehschkott
Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:40 pm
daywalkerJoined: 09 Nov 2007Posts: 6108Location: Hatertown
Next question, where's good to get tires/tubes/rims
_________________ GREAT UNITER / ORACLE / ELDER
MOOAAR DONGS
jimmythefly
Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:56 pm
Joined: 10 Jan 2007Posts: 1491
For 650b or 700c?
Alex
Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:02 pm
Joined: 18 May 2006Posts: 3128Location: Roosevelt
Free Range has had the best selection of 650B road stuff in Seattle. I don't know if they are stocking any of the MTB tires.
I have the Pacenti Quasi-Moto MTB tires if you want to examine before buying from elsewhere. They are a high volume/low know model. I haven't ridden them yet...still building the bike that will wear them.
I have a disk Rawlands dSogn in size M/L (around 55cm) that I'll be selling pretty soon if anyone is interested in a "do everything" 650B bike. It is kind of like a 650B Bridgestone XO-1.
tehschkott
Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:11 pm
daywalkerJoined: 09 Nov 2007Posts: 6108Location: Hatertown
Alex wrote:
Free Range has had the best selection of 650B road stuff in Seattle. I don't know if they are stocking any of the MTB tires.
I have the Pacenti Quasi-Moto MTB tires if you want to examine before buying from elsewhere. They are a high volume/low know model. I haven't ridden them yet.still building the bike that will wear them.
I have a disk Rawlands dSogn in size M/L (around 55cm) that I'll be selling pretty soon if anyone is interested in a "do everything" 650B bike. It is kind of like a 650B Bridgestone XO-1.
Word. Thanks Alex. Those Pacenti's are exactly the tire that will go on that bike if I go that direction. Looks like the only 650bx2.0 mountain bike tire on the market right now.
Decisions decisions decisions
_________________ GREAT UNITER / ORACLE / ELDER
MOOAAR DONGS
Happy Stick Person
Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:20 pm
Joined: 20 Sep 2006Posts: 1168Location: Leschi
someday they will make 900c wheels and then my bikes won't look so retarded.
evilmikeJoined: 19 Apr 2006Posts: 640Location: Capitalist Hill
Right! I like 650b even though I have zero 650b bikes. This all started with my ill-fated Surly Steamroller, which has room for 700x38 tires, but no fenders, and no fender bosses, and the seatstay bridge is in a bad position for fenders.
So, the solution was to go with 650b, which would increase the room for fenders and get me larger tires, which I prefer (I prefer 32mm, but I have 28mm on my beater). there are some brake issues, of course, but I'm working on resolving that now.
So, while this whole thing started out of some preference and some necessity, I became a little obsessed with the wheel size. Slightly stronger wheels than 700C, with semi-balloon tires and full, long fenders. Great looking tires (Grand Bois Hetre esp). Plus all the extreme nerdiness that goes along with this grouchiest of grouchy wheel sizes.
But Beau is right, I think -- in most cases, it's just a matter of preference. What's right for selling at R&E isn't what's always right for me. It turns out the best thing I did for the steamroller was put the Long Haul Trucker fork on it. Changed the BB height a little, but the HT/ST angles are a lot better (73/72) and the handlebars will finally be the right height without an absurd stem angle. I'm excited as heck to get the bike finished, though.
_________________ Some of us like things. Some of us are just joyless, bitter assholes.
jimmythefly
Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:28 pm
Joined: 10 Jan 2007Posts: 1491
Happy Stick Person wrote:
someday they will make 900c wheels and then my bikes won't look so retarded.
daywalkerJoined: 09 Nov 2007Posts: 6108Location: Hatertown
jimmythefly wrote:
Happy Stick Person wrote:
someday they will make 900c wheels and then my bikes won't look so retarded.
36er?
</object>
Saw one of those last month on the Burke. Pretty impressive.
_________________ GREAT UNITER / ORACLE / ELDER
MOOAAR DONGS
whoreratiocane
Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:15 pm
Joined: 12 Aug 2010Posts: 190Location: Florida
After putting on my fenders this year, I had to drop to a 25c tires to make the clearance on my Soma Smoothie ES (52cm). This has gotten me thinking about new frames, but also converting to 650b, to get better tire select. As described above I am probably not a medium guy but more of short guy with a small 700c frame (need a max 29" standover). What would it take to convert to 650b? What should a set of 650b wheels cost? Are there any budget solutions that I will not regret in 18 months? What is the change in brake length? Does it matter that the Smoothie already uses a medium length brake?
I know that the LHT comes in a 26" wheel geometry for short people, but I don't know. I also have been thinking about the new Casserole, since the change to Canti brakes creates better clearance. Also color matched front rack and stem. Are there any other frames that would be good at haulin stuff / fun to ride / short person compatible.
Joined: 25 Jul 2005Posts: 5547Location: Columbia City
derrickito wrote:
im a medium.
no you are not. XL, buddy.
_________________ riders wanted for hazardous journey. Small wages, bitter cold, long months of complete darkness, constant danger, safe return doubtful. Honour and recognition in case of success.
jimmythefly
Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:20 pm
Joined: 10 Jan 2007Posts: 1491
Convert 700c to 650b: You'll need wheels, tires, and your brake pads need to be 19mm lower. Measure your current brake reach, add 19, and figure out what calipers you'll need. Free Range Cycles I think has most of this stuff in stock, perhaps other local shops, too. Or find online. Any 650b-specific parts you buy will be transferrable to a new frame, or easily sold -the stuff seems to hold it's valeu a bit better than 700c or 26" stuff(mostly because of people doing exactly what you are thinking).
If you're interested in a front rack-compatible bike(brand new), I'd go for Rawland's upcoming rSogn (650-b specific, canti brakes, front-end geometry optimized for a front rack load). There are other, spendier options out there, too, and they're available right now.
A 29er would not make sense, if all you're looking for is a road bike that'll fit wider tires and possess a <29" stand over.
whoreratiocane
Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:55 pm
Joined: 12 Aug 2010Posts: 190Location: Florida
Jimmy,
Thanks for making the math easy. I have a 57mm on their now, so a 76mm break length would work. I have a set of brake calipers that measure out to be the right size. Does anyone have a 650b wheel set that I could borrow for a quick mock up or test ride? Thanks.
Here is some MMA on Ice from over the weekend.
_________________ YEAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!!!!!
jimmythefly
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:06 am
Joined: 10 Jan 2007Posts: 1491
Also, see one guys 650b Soma smoothie hconversion project here:
I have a front 57-75mm reach Tektro dual pivot brake that I don't need if it helps anyone with the conversion. The rear is in use on Christine's 650B-ified Soma mixte, but the new fork that I built for that bike uses V-brakes up front.
I probably have an ugly but functional rear that will work if you need two brakes.
Ductape
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:12 pm
Joined: 06 Mar 2010Posts: 200Location: Suburbia
I saw this old 83 stumpy converted to 650b. Why I don't know. I thought it looked cool though:
I have this old 83 Stumpy I had good intentions of cleaning up and saving just because. Then I slowly started taking parts from it for other era correct projects. Now it is mostly just a bare frame:
Now I think it would be really fun to put it back together with 650B like the one above. Why I don't know. I think it would look cool though.
whoreratiocane
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 3:00 pm
Joined: 12 Aug 2010Posts: 190Location: Florida
So, I did some digging on Derrick's favor store and found some cheap wheel sets. Anyone have any option on either the wheels or tires in these postings?
For $22 you might as well get some cheap tires and tubes. The tires probably suck, but you can roll on them until buying something nicer. The nice 650B tires unfortunately cost about $50-$60 each.
derrickito
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 3:34 pm
now with 50 percent more EVILJoined: 22 Jul 2005Posts: 10566
in twenty minutes im going to walk across the street to performance bike and spend 7.50 on a tire. i'll probably ride it for several years.
Eric_s
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:45 pm
Joined: 07 Mar 2007Posts: 1691Location: the dirty south
there's a guy at psu who has an uber nerdy soma smoothie es 650b conversion. He says it's a fantastic frame to use for a conversion: He's using vo fenders and marathon 584x~40 tires, and has some dorky rivendell style setup going on with the bars and front rack. Seems to ride it all the time, and it appears to work great.
If I were to do a 650b conversion rather than buying a frame designed for that size, I would use the smoothie es or maybe the surly pacer.
Why would I do a conversion? Cantis are a pain in the ass, and most 650b frames out there are canti specific.
All times are GMT - 8 Hours
The time now is Fri Aug 11, 2023 4:34 am
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
daywalker
Joined: 09 Nov 2007
Posts: 6108
Location: Hatertown
1337
Joined: 22 Jul 2005
Posts: 6705
Location: right over
Joined: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 1491
now with 50 percent more EVIL
Joined: 22 Jul 2005
Posts: 10566
Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 3128
Location: Roosevelt
Helen Keller, WHAT?
Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 395
Location: Ballard
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 1691
Location: the dirty south
Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 6037
Location: Ether
Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 1168
Location: Leschi
evilmike
Joined: 19 Apr 2006
Posts: 640
Location: Capitalist Hill
Joined: 12 Aug 2010
Posts: 190
Location: Florida
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 5547
Location: Columbia City
Joined: 06 Mar 2010
Posts: 200
Location: Suburbia
